$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . | $$ | X X . . X . . X . | $$ | X O X X . . X . . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O W X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+
[go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . | $$ | X X . . X . . X . | $$ | X O X X . . X . . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O W X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
White just played the marked move, taking the last dame. No prisoners were made during the game. Assuming 0.5 komi for white, what is the result of the game?
Re: Recent 9x9 game
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:06 am
by daal
Is this a trick question?
jigo
Re: Recent 9x9 game
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:11 am
by p2501
HermanHiddema wrote:
$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . | $$ | X X . . X . . X . | $$ | X O X X . . X . . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O W X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+
[go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . | $$ | X X . . X . . X . | $$ | X O X X . . X . . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O W X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
White just played the marked move, taking the last dame. No prisoners were made during the game. Assuming 0.5 komi for white, what is the result of the game?
Probably stupid question, but where is my reading wrong?
After B pass:
$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O 4 . . . | $$ | X X 5 . X 3 . X . | $$ | X O X X 2 1 X . . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+
[go]$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O 4 . . . | $$ | X X 5 . X 3 . X . | $$ | X O X X 2 1 X . . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
or
$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . 7 . | $$ | X X . 4 X 3 5 X . | $$ | X O X X 2 1 X 6 . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+
[go]$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . 7 . | $$ | X X . 4 X 3 5 X . | $$ | X O X X 2 1 X 6 . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
W+R?
Please educate
Re: Recent 9x9 game
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:13 am
by HermanHiddema
daal wrote:Is this a trick question?
jigo
Erm, there's 0.5 komi, how did you get jigo?
Re: Recent 9x9 game
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:15 am
by emeraldemon
If black doesn't protect:
$$Wcm1 $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 X O 4 . . . | $$ | X X 5 6 X 3 . X . | $$ | X O X X 2 1 X . . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+
[go]$$Wcm1 $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 X O 4 . . . | $$ | X X 5 6 X 3 . X . | $$ | X O X X 2 1 X . . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
$$Wcm1 $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . 7 . | $$ | X X 4 . X 3 5 X . | $$ | X O X X 2 1 X 6 . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+
[go]$$Wcm1 $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . 7 . | $$ | X X 4 . X 3 5 X . | $$ | X O X X 2 1 X 6 . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
Edit: So black has to spend a move to protect, making it W+0.5
Re: Recent 9x9 game
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:16 am
by HermanHiddema
p2501 wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . | $$ | X X . . X . . X . | $$ | X O X X . . X . . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O W X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+
[go]$$B $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . | $$ | X X . . X . . X . | $$ | X O X X . . X . . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O W X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
White just played the marked move, taking the last dame. No prisoners were made during the game. Assuming 0.5 komi for white, what is the result of the game?
Probably stupid question, but where is my reading wrong?
After B pass:
$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O 4 . . . | $$ | X X 5 . X 3 . X . | $$ | X O X X 2 1 X . . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+
[go]$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O 4 . . . | $$ | X X 5 . X 3 . X . | $$ | X O X X 2 1 X . . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
or
$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . 7 . | $$ | X X . 4 X 3 5 X . | $$ | X O X X 2 1 X 6 . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+
[go]$$W $$ +-------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . 7 . | $$ | X X . 4 X 3 5 X . | $$ | X O X X 2 1 X 6 . | $$ | O O X O X X O X X | $$ | . O O O O X O O O | $$ | . . . . O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-------------------+[/go]
W+R?
Please educate
Your reading is not wrong. That sequence is exactly what I had in mind. Of course, since it is black's turn, black should play a defensive move and will then lose by 0.5
I posted it the way I did to give as little clue as possible that there is anything amiss. I'm curious how many players, and at what strength, spot this aji
Re: Recent 9x9 game
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:53 am
by jts
I believe I got it, although when I saw the sequence I started with C7. It's normally bad form to start inside when unnecessary, but I couldn't find a different way for Black to resist?
Re: Recent 9x9 game
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:31 am
by daal
HermanHiddema wrote:
daal wrote:Is this a trick question?
jigo
Erm, there's 0.5 komi, how did you get jigo?
oops. blitz posting. bad habit.
Re: Recent 9x9 game
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:44 am
by HermanHiddema
jts wrote:
I believe I got it, although when I saw the sequence I started with C7. It's normally bad form to start inside when unnecessary, but I couldn't find a different way for Black to resist?
Yes, C7 works as well, and is perhaps even more subtle
Re: Recent 9x9 game
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:47 pm
by Solomon
Doesn't it depend on which rules you're using?
Re: Recent 9x9 game
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:35 pm
by daniel_the_smith
HermanHiddema wrote:
I posted it the way I did to give as little clue as possible that there is anything amiss. I'm curious how many players, and at what strength, spot this aji
A data point for you: it took me a only few seconds to find the tesuji, but the way you posted it was still a big hint that there was a tesuji to be found. Anyway, I'm still quite sure I would have found it in a game.
(to make it more subtle, you could have posted, say, 3 9x9 endgames for counting, only one of them having a tesuji )
Re: Recent 9x9 game
Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:00 am
by gowan
The original post asks for the "result" of the game. My first thought was that the game play was finished and only counting the score remained because if moves can still be played the game isn't over and there is no "result". Then I realized that Herman couldn't have meant that it was a half-point win for White and I found the tesuji.
Re: Recent 9x9 game
Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:10 am
by HermanHiddema
Well, I guess there isn't really a good way to post this kind of thing without immediately setting off everyone's alarm bells.
Perhaps, as daniel_the_smith suggested, posting it as part of some sort of series would allow it to slip under people's radars.
In the game, my opponent didn't spot it, and passed. Although I don't know how strong he is exactly, it cannot be too weak, given the fact that he can get this result against a 4d.
Re: Recent 9x9 game
Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:36 pm
by Dusk Eagle
If black counts and realizes he will lose by half a point if he defends, I would argue that it makes more sense for black to pass and hope white doesn't realize black's weakness than to defend and lose for sure.
Re: Recent 9x9 game
Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:54 am
by emeraldemon
Dusk Eagle wrote:If black counts and realizes he will lose by half a point if he defends, I would argue that it makes more sense for black to pass and hope white doesn't realize black's weakness than to defend and lose for sure.
Not sure I agree with this. There is something nice about finishing a close game. Although the result is technically the same, I think there's a quality difference between a game I lost by one point, and a game I had to resign because I was hoping my opponent would make a mistake.
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