Life In 19x19

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:21 pm**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to live or make a ko i suppose. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hi,
this is Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems. http://tsumego.tasuki.org/?page=tsumego
i can't find the solution. Not even a ko. Any Suggestions?

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:56 pm**

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 6 . 7 . 8 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 3 O 4 O X X O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X 5 X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[sl=EternalLife]Eternal Life[/sl]?

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:32 pm**

Wow. Thanks for the answer. :salute:

Good to know that this game can still surprise me.

I really thought that there is no answer for this problem. (Indeed, this seems to be true under a ruleset with super-ko.)

IMO, not really an standard problem.

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:06 pm**

Under super-ko eternal life just becomes a regular ko, no? So it's not "no solution", in any case.

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:31 pm**

This is Cho Chikun's collection, so I think it is reasonable to assume you are using Japanese rules. Besides, if you can read out to this point, you have achieved the pedagogical objective.
:grumpy:

Posted: **Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:39 pm**

A good exercise is to consider this move as well, which doesn't lead to eternal life but still gives a satisfactory result for Black if he plays correctly:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . 4 . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 3 O . O X X O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:19 pm**

Be sure to remember that when a similar position arises in your AGA tournament games this weekend, that Black dies. The American Go Association rules have situational superko, which prohibits Black from repeating the position that Black 7 creates in HermanHiddema's diagram above.

Posted: **Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:38 pm**

gonut wrote:Be sure to remember that when a similar position arises in your AGA tournament games this weekend, that Black dies. The American Go Association rules have situational superko, which prohibits Black from repeating the position that Black 7 creates in HermanHiddema's diagram above.

Even after making a ko threat?

Here is a problem which stumped me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

(Doubly embarrassing because either I got it right the first three times and I have since lost the ability to solve it, or I thought I had solved it three times and didn't see a really obvious problem with my "solution".)

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:59 am**

I still didn't have my morning coffee, so forgive me if I overlook something obvious. But I don't see why black c5 doesn't lead to a ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Black to live or make a ko i suppose. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 3 O X X O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Black to live or make a ko i suppose. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . 1 2 . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 4 O X O X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Black to live or make a ko i suppose. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 5 . 2 6 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 4 O X O X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 1 X . X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Black to live or make a ko i suppose. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 3 . 1 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 2 O X O X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:11 am**

jts wrote:
$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:18 am**

jts wrote:
gonut wrote:Be sure to remember that when a similar position arises in your AGA tournament games this weekend, that Black dies. The American Go Association rules have situational superko, which prohibits Black from repeating the position that Black 7 creates in HermanHiddema's diagram above.

Even after making a ko threat?

As soon as black plays 7 white can play 8 again leading to the same local situation. Then black is again obliged to play c6, white captures at e6 and then black needs to find another ko threat. Sooner or later black will run out of ko threats while white doesn't need to play any threat.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:24 am**

perceval wrote:
jts wrote:
$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X . X . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Doesnt you second solution works after at A19? (and the under the stone @A18)
$$c @
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | 3 O 2 O 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | B 6 X 5 X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 O . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c @ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | 3 O 2 O 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | B 6 X 5 X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O X X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 4 O . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

actually is started to write a post on how a in your diag would work only to realize that it doesnt ... but i really don't see the faintest change without starting at E19 so i kept digging there
i am terrible at this so please correct

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:15 am**

entropi wrote:I still didn't have my morning coffee, so forgive me if I overlook something obvious. But I don't see why black c5 doesn't lead to a ko.

$$c Black to live or make a ko i suppose.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 3 O X X O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to live or make a ko i suppose. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O 3 O X X O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Double ko death $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | 8 9 . 5 . 6 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 7 O 3 O X X O O 2 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 4 X 0 X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After the sequence shown, black dies in double ko:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c End position $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | O X a X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | b W X . X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | O a O X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Because of the two kos labeled a, the marked stone can never be captured. Note that black may take the corner stone, but it doesn't give him an eye.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:23 am**

entropi wrote:
jts wrote:
gonut wrote:Be sure to remember that when a similar position arises in your AGA tournament games this weekend, that Black dies. The American Go Association rules have situational superko, which prohibits Black from repeating the position that Black 7 creates in HermanHiddema's diagram above.

Even after making a ko threat?

As soon as black plays 7 white can play 8 again leading to the same local situation. Then black is again obliged to play c6, white captures at e6 and then black needs to find another ko threat. Sooner or later black will run out of ko threats while white doesn't need to play any threat.

Ah, ok. So under situational superko, this functions in the same way as a double ko - unwinnable by black, but an infinite source of 30 pt. ko threats?

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:22 am**

jts wrote:
entropi wrote:
jts wrote:Even after making a ko threat?

As soon as black plays 7 white can play 8 again leading to the same local situation. Then black is again obliged to play c6, white captures at e6 and then black needs to find another ko threat. Sooner or later black will run out of ko threats while white doesn't need to play any threat.

Ah, ok. So under situational superko, this functions in the same way as a double ko - unwinnable by black, but an infinite source of 30 pt. ko threats?

No, actually you can play it as a regular ko, but it is a little more tricky to remember which positions have already occurred.

There are four positions in the cycle:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O O O X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O O O X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O X X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O O O X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O O O X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X O X X O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X X O O . . O , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the last one, if black captures, it returns to the first one.

Now lets examine how ko is played here. In the example from the problem, position 1 is the first to arise, after :b7:

That means, that after playing through positions 2,3 and 4, black cannot return to position 1.

So Black makes a ko threat, and White responds.

Now, we are still at position 4, but two new stones elsewhere have been played. So position 4 is the first one that cannot be repeated from here.

Black captures (goes to position 1), white throws in (position 2), black pushes in (position 3).

At this point, white is not allowed to capture, as that would return to the position we had after the ko threat and response had been played (position 4).

So White plays a ko threat, and Black responds.

We are then at position 3, which is now the first one that cannot be repeated.

Move through positions 4, 1 and 2 (W, B, W) and it is Black who needs a threat.

Etcetera.

Life In 19x19

Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems

Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems

Re: Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems

Re: Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems

Re: Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems

Re: Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems

Re: Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems

Re: Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems

Re: Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems

Re: Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems

Re: Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems

Re: Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems

Re: Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems

Re: Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems

Re: Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems

Re: Problem Nr. 344 from Cho's intermediate Problems