Life In 19x19

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:21 pm**

I've been getting quite frustrated recently because I seem to keep losing in the same ways. This is a pretty good example of that (and with large time limits too, so no pressure there) - I just can't deal with a player who takes good territory.

The last invasion was a last gasp unreasonable play, but obviously the problem sets in early on. Please give me some help!

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:21 pm**

My 7 kyu instinct doesn't like your W12. Just look at the board. I love his groups, but hate yours. Why not play senraisen at W6? Let him do the work to overcome the komi.

Posted: **Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:06 pm**

cyclops wrote:My 7 kyu instinct doesn't like your W12. Just look at the board. I love his groups, but hate yours. Why not play senraisen at W6? Let him do the work to overcome the komi.

I think that locally W12 is perfect shape. In fact, I think that black should have split the three space extension with 9 to prevent white from getting that spot. Playing elsewhere invites black to come in, and white's stones will be split in an area where black is strong.

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:27 am**

I don't like 22, since after 23/24 W's group is still not stable, so B is able to attack over the rest of the board. This means that 20 was the wrong direction and should have been at C15.

26 is wrong direction, as it's not attacking or creating territory and it's not really reducing B's - perhaps K3 to provoke a B invasion? If B plays M5 then there's always R6.

28: D10 is weak if it can't connect up to the top group (which is also weak), so it's best not to strengthen B this way. Try C5 followed by F4, but 35 gives W an opportunity - the B group can now be made heavy by playing (say) C9 at the same time as W D10 gets stronger.

37 hmmm push up and cut feels right, but the ladder doesn't work, so maybe B can't. However doesn't E13, F13, G12, F12, G13, F14, C12 cut the two groups? However, the lower B group is so weak in this event that it's not practical for B.

38 should be at F12, or more probably C9. This way gives B the opportunity to play F13

46 is ambitious as it doesn't quite protect the F11 cutting point. B could counter with something like H9

But 59 gives W an opportunity to fix things up at H9, but is spurned... Obviously W needs to play E9 to protect against the coming cut first!

But B fails to kill the W group - 67 should be at B12. If B11 then C11, C10, B13 seems to kill w.

72 is unnecessary and allows B to secure his central group. If B11 then B7, C7, D9 assures the group of 2 eyes.

After this W is lost - he has less than 10 points in the bottom left, 3 on the left, 5 at the top and 10 on the right and a few in the centre, i.e. about 40 including komi. B has at least 25 on the bottom, 10-15 at the top, 10 on the top left and 10 in the centre.

So why?

Well, W created his own weak groups, especially with the attack at 38. Move out into the centre first before digging in along the edge. Threaten from a distance, not by direct attack as this often strengthens your opponent.

Does this help?

Jon

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:36 am**

cyclops wrote:My 7 kyu instinct doesn't like your W12. Just look at the board. I love his groups, but hate yours. Why not play senraisen at W6? Let him do the work to overcome the komi.

Sanrensei is possible, but :w6:

is the most popular move in this position.

@Stable: I'm a weak 6 kyu on KGS but I think your problem in this game was :w16:

why playon the 4th line?
I think a pincer on the 3rd would be better here. The reason should be clear after :w24:

. Black has no big weakneses to attack so your influence is getting a bit useless and at this point you have almost no territory, Black can and will invade the lower left.

:w26:

I don't really understand this move, it looks like an overplay to me.

:w46:

This is an all or nothing move, it's true that you can only win if you kill it but you should know that your 2 groups that surround this group are not strong enough to attack.

:b55:

After this move you lost a bit of territory but more importantly your group was weakenend and can bearly live in the corner.

:w56:

sure it protects your cut but it's from the wrong direction, your group on the middle needs help, then you can maybe kill black.
Black shows you at :57: why you should have played from above.

That's all, since I'm a lot weaker then you you can ignore me or correct me if I'm wrong. Everyone else is also welcomme to correct me.

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:55 am**

Thanks Mumps, good points. I completely missed that I didn't need to defend at 72. What's the advantage of playing c9 though? It doesn't seem to do much to get eyes and doesn't threaten the cut at the b group below either.

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:10 am**

Blades, you may be right about many of your points, and I certainly won't discount them without a look. I played :w16:

high because I wanted to play for influence, and :w26:

was a part of that (though it may still be an overplay). Unfortunately I then destroyed what I was working towards by mishandling black's entrance to the lower left. :roll:

With

if I defend on the other side b can cut, as it stands I have a ladder, so b can't cut.

Thanks for the input. :salute:

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:34 am**

Some comments on the opening.

IMO, your problems arose from poor choices of joseki, especially the attach and extend in the top left and the attach and block in the bottom left. As a result, your stones failed to work together.

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:01 am**

Thanks Bill, that's very helpful. :salute:

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:06 am**

I wrote a long reply and then timed out and lost it all... So this version is a bit less detailed.

You have a fundamental weakness in your fighting. It is not about individual moves but your general approach. Just because a group can't be killed doesn't mean that it is yet alive. You need to attack groups in ways that help your global position. Instead you keep playing unnecessary defensive moves.

you also play several moves extending a group, then immediately give up as soon as you are attacked. The classic example of this was :w52:

you should play H3

:w72:

this is not even the right move if you were trying to defend the group , but more importantly you can fight for the middle of the board.

:b13:

was a very poor move which fails to show the real problem in your sequence from w12 onwards. You are again defending a vulnerable group but you allow black to attack your group and become stronger and build territory at the same time.

:w16:

you should take the corner instead leave black with a weak group and keep it disconected. You haven't got any territory yet and you are too keen to play on the fourth row in this position.

Black is overplaying, ignoring your sente moves. In these circumstances you should treat your stones as alive until black can bprove them otherwise. However, you could have avoided much of this by playing a different flavour of opening and playing :w4:

R4.

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:14 am**

I felt my 7 kyu comment on this 1 dan was already an overplay but you beat me by far.

tetron wrote:.....
You have a fundamental weakness in your fighting. It is not about individual moves but your general approach. Just because a group can't be killed doesn't mean that it is yet alive. You need to attack groups in ways that help your global position. Instead you keep playing unnecessary defensive moves.
you also play several moves extending a group, then immediately give up as soon as you are attacked. The classic example of this was you should play H3 ....

You probably mean H2 after which b connects at G4. If W next defends his H2 group sooner or later his corner will get killed by C3. But he will undoubtly be grateful for your more fundamental remarks.

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:36 am**

I try to remember this post when reviewing:

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 465#p46465

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:35 am**

In general, I think it's good to just read the comments without worrying about the commentor's rank (though I have to admit I have trouble with that myself :p).

Still, I disagree with many of Tetron's points, except about move 72, which I presume is just an illusion of thinking it was sente to cut.

Edit: After looking through the game, it feels like a main issue for white was in helping black strengthen what might otherwise be targets (e.g. the two attachment on top sequences from the star points on the left side).

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:56 pm**

cyclops wrote:I felt my 7 kyu comment on this 1 dan was already an overplay but you beat me by far.

You probably mean H2 after which b connects at G4. If W next defends his H2 group sooner or later his corner will get killed by C3. But he will undoubtly be grateful for your more fundamental remarks.

I cut my comment back a lot. My 5 kyu rating is based upon last live tournament of more than a decade ago and was probably an underrating. I had a weakness in invading the middle of the board, never learnt any joseki and am prone to blunders. The only tournament game I ever lost involved a 100 point mistake after correctly refusing a ko threat for a 3 point ko. :oops:

I have no idea where my current rating should be at... had a 5 dan misread the last live game I played for fun against a 3 kyu but my general shape play is still very strong even if reading is rusty.

Yes I did mean H2. My longer version had expanded upon this move.

I realise now that despite my wish to expand upon it it is not possible to do it in any way that would be useful.

Two points:
1) I did not play the stones necessarily with the intention of keeping them alive
my plan wasn't to keep the corner group alive although this move gives the option to secure the corner
2) but I didn't believe after w52 that even killing the black group was enough to win.

The plan for the lower corner was to try to escape the white corner group either up a direct attack on the black stones or across but with the option of taking the side simply by killing J3

Posted: **Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:12 pm**

Many of us just post our KGS ranks. It's slightly more time consuming to acquire but ultimately easier than spending credibility arguing about your "real rating".

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