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#158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:14 pm
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Let's play :)
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok, if we're playing even, let's nigiri :)

13


Guess odd or even, have a look, and if you're right, I guess you take Black and move :)

Have a great game either way!

@Obs:

Ok, I'm really, really rusty, I really haven't played much at all since I left, and I've joined the ASR this month with some spectacularly sloppy games. So, hopefully I should be able to get playing a bit better with a game with proper time controls. I'm also hoping to really work on my game over the next few months and actually make noticeable improvement, so I will be taking this one very seriously (also, that makes sure I can't make excuses if I lose !!)

I'll be commenting fairly fully, but please give comments on the quality and quantity, as I'll try to tailor it a bit to the observers, both level-wise and quantity-wise

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:14 pm
by speedchase
odd

edit:

I guessed right so I go first I guess... is 6.5 komi JPN rules ok with you?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



3-4 is my favorite opening point. I am territorial in my play.
my favorite fuseki is cross so I will play that if possible.
If I can't get cross, I will probably play mini chinese

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:12 pm
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Probably a gross breach of etiquette, but I'm not a fan of the orthodox, and we can go all Chinese if he wants to.

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:41 pm
by speedchase
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So I know I probably shouldn't over think it yet. but that being said...


This seems somehow more asthetic(perhaps because if he plays 44 it is symetrical) that being said I think it is not has good becuase I instantly give him the ideal approach if he wants to play immediate approach
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



That would lead me to this move, because it avoids giving him his ideal approach.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If I do this though, then I have two stones pointing at the same 44 point so they are miai
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think that's ok though because I like this board for me because the strength he gets seems less ideal because of :w2: In fact I think because of this, in the diagram below I think :w8: is a mistake, and should be at b, because here the invasion at a is too perfect., and if he takes the time to protect, that is also good for me because I get sente.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . 6 5 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 8 b 4 , X . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:16 pm
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Cross openings supposedly are territorial, and komi helps a lot, so I'll just take a (rare, for me!) 3-3

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:22 pm
by speedchase
Interesting, I this strikes me as a little weird for two reason. 1 because if he had played 44 he could have gotten a good approach one way or the other. 2 because 44 then 33 just seems awkward (it's a little that I don't like 33 also) I'll have to think about this

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:43 pm
by Kirby
topazg is back!

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:59 pm
by illluck
Nice to see topazg return :)

Also, sansan is never wrong! :p

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:05 pm
by 1986
welcome back topazg!
:clap: :clap: :clap: :bow: :bow: :bow: :salute: :salute: :salute:

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:13 pm
by speedchase
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After some thought I decided on this because as far as I can tell there isn't a reason to go against the standard opening priority list.
1 take corner
2 enclose/approach assmetrical corner
3 side extention/critical 2space extension.
4 enclose symetrical corner
5 uncritical two space

anyway I usually don't hold this as an Iron rule, but there isn't really a reason not too here because I looked for something that make it not apply, and couldn't find it.

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:49 pm
by Bill Spight
Welcome back, topazg! :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Go Seigen does not like :w2:, because it allows :b3:, mukai komoku. He does not offer a brief explanation (in the books I have) why he likes mukai komoku. However, I have had a thought, that I thought I would share. With mukai komoku Black gets two komoku (3-4 points) such that White cannot get an ideal position against either one in an adjacent corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In the actual game, :w4: is poised to approach either 3-4 if Black encloses the other one.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now we expect White to approach the top right corner, but how will he make it work with :w4:?

Edit: Unhidden.

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:09 pm
by Kirby
Bill Spight wrote:...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Go Seigen does not like :w2:, because it allows :b3:, mukai komoku. He does not offer a brief explanation (in the books I have) why he likes mukai komoku. However, I have had a thought, that I thought I would share. With mukai komoku Black gets two komoku (3-4 points) such that White cannot get an ideal position against either one in an adjacent corner. ...


This explanation for the benefit of mukai komoku seems pretty good. I had always thought that the reason mukai komoku are rockin' is because if/when white approaches one, black can get a nice pincer:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . 5 . . 4 , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I wonder if this is another plus.

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:34 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So, had a few thoughts about this move. In essence, after Black's shimari, the lower side is become really important for everyone, so getting there first seems kind of important - fortunately, it's my move, so I can do it now, but where?

The board is already lending itself less to influential moyo based play, partly because of the cross opening and partly because there's a lot of 3rd line play going down. As a result, I'm not going to try a 4th line stone as my opponent can undercut without much clear compensation to me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now the threat of Black sliding under limits the effectiveness of "a" (as :b7: is hard to turn into an easy target) and cuts away my potential points. The outside influence is of course hardly valueless, but it seems inadequate to me. I could naturally go closer - if the lower right stone was Black's, I'd probably play one closer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . X . 8 . . 6 . 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As long as I have room for a two space extension, I'm comfortable, and playing closer to the shimari means that Black can generate less points from it. In this case, I've chosen to play further away so Black doesn't have the luxury of doing it himself:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 7 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 8 . . 2 . 5 . 3 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now :b9: is too close, and Black is cramped. Of course, Black could do something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm5 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 7 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . 5 . 2 . 8 . 3 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But, one problem at a time. I'm still ok with this, and I think Black will have more "fun" than White in dealing with the resulting position.

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:52 am
by Bill Spight
topazg wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




As Gomer Pyle says, "Surprise, surprise!" ;)

If Black plays another enclosure, that takes care of White's problem of how to make an approach work with the 3-3 stone. ;)

Edit: Unhidden.

Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:40 pm
by Loons
A database search confirms the most territorial move around is ubiquitous; probably followed by :b7: . Not too many games with this fuseki though.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm6 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 2 . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


How well is your derusting going, topazg?

Have a good game, both.