Frustrations - lost with 8 handi stones

[karaklis]

This is a game that I lost against a 6d with 8 handi stones.
That means that I have made at least 8 major mistakes worth a handi stone each.

Yes, it was a great teaching game, but nevertheless it's frustrating to lose with such a huge amount of handi stones..

All comments are welcome.

(;GM[1]FF[4]AP[Drago:4.01]SZ[19]CA[UTF-8]AB[pd][jd][dd][dj][dp][jp][pp][pj];W[nc];B[oc];W[nd];B[pf];W[gd];B[df];W[qn];B[qo];W[pn];B[np]
;W[ph];B[nj];W[nh];B[nf];W[ke];B[je];W[jf];B[he];W[mm];B[lj]
;W[lh];B[km];W[mk];B[mj];W[kl];B[kk];W[jl];B[ij];W[lp];B[mq]
;W[lq];B[ro];W[gp];B[dn];W[hl];B[gn];W[hn];B[go];W[ho];B[er]
;W[gj];B[hi];W[hg];B[gi];W[ge];B[hf];W[gf];B[ig];W[ih];B[jg]
;W[jh];B[kf];W[kg];B[if];W[lf];B[le];W[kd];B[mf];W[jf];B[ld]
;W[kf];B[kc];W[lc];B[mc];W[lb];B[me];W[mb];B[gg];W[hh];B[hq]
;W[hp];B[iq];W[ob];B[pb];W[oe];B[of];W[pe];B[qe];W[qd];B[rd]
;W[qc];B[re];W[qg];B[qf];W[rc];B[rg];W[rh];B[sc];W[od];B[sf]
;W[eq];B[sd];W[dq];B[fr];W[cp];B[co];W[ep];B[bp];W[do];B[eo]
;W[jr];B[cr];W[cq];B[bq];W[dr];B[ds];W[br];B[bs];W[cs];B[kr]
;W[lr];B[cr];W[bo];B[dp];W[cs];B[kq];W[ks];B[cr];W[do];B[ar]
;W[cn];B[qi];W[oq];B[op];W[nr];B[rm];W[qq];B[qh];W[ch];B[cg]
;W[dh];B[fj];W[dc];B[ec];W[cd];B[ce];W[ed];B[de];W[fc];B[eb]
;W[cc];B[ee];W[fd];B[eg];W[gh];B[eh];W[bj];B[cj];W[bk])

[RBerenguel]

Is the game incomplete or you resigned? The major "mistakes" I saw were mostly misreads (I assume). I'm not a good handi player, so my suggestions don't come with a lot of strength, but you have to try to stay connected as much as you can... And cut white as much as you can. White has a group spanning all the bottom, and connected through a cut almost all the top, too. Don't take this as a critique, I'm guilty of worse handicap sins

[karaklis]

Thanks for your input.

I replayed the game with Drago to store it as SGF, so it seems to be incomplete, but actually it is complete. I lost this game on time, but it is pretty obvious that black is pretty much behind and I would have resigned anyway within the next few moves. The opponent was soooooo strong

[EdLee]

That means that I have made at least 8 major mistakes worth a handi stone each.

Are you sure? How do you know it was not (8 stones/74)-mistakes spread over 74 moves?
Or, any other combinations in between?

[daal]

The first move that looks questionable to my kyu-eyes is 22, which feels thin, instead of pressuring w's own thinness. Then twice, move 30 and move 40 you choose to protect territory instead of protecting your weakest stones. This proves to have been in vain as white later creepily dissects your corners. I can certainly empathize with your frustration, but on the other hand, white offers us some great examples of how to rob banks.

[amnal]

(;GM[1]FF[4]AP[qGo:1.5.4]ST[1]
SZ[19]HA[0]KM[0]PW[White]PB[Black]
AB[dd][dj][dp][jd][jp][pd][pj][pp]CA[UTF-8]
;W[nc]
;B[oc]C[I like to kick my opponent in the face too.]
;W[nd];B[pf];W[gd];B[df];W[qn];B[qo];W[pn];B[np];W[ph]C[Ooh, such a handicap game move.]
;B[nj]C[Seems like a strong response. If black just makes all his stones strong, there is little white can do, and black will eventually have time to attack one of white's groups.]
;W[nh]
;B[nf]C[Again, the same, but white is getting a complicated fight that may help him. Black has shape weaknesses at R17, R15, P15 etc. They aren't a problem right now, except that they're the kind of places that white can induce a black mistake and gain ground. That's not a problem, it helps you learn, but it's worth being aware of.]
;W[ke];B[je];W[jf];B[he]C[Solid and strong. I don't know if it's the best, but it isn't helping white to win.]
;W[mm]
;B[lj]C[Good.]
;W[lh]
;B[km]C[A powerful move! This is the first real important place in the game; you have made white a serious challenge, declaring that your stones are as strong as his, and that now you can attack him. That's great, but it's white's first big opportunity to outplay you in a fierce local fight. Lets see how it goes.]
;W[mk];B[mj];W[kl]C[Aha, this old chestnut. The key here is to remember your original plan, to attack white. To do that, you need to keep the N10 stones safe, but also not give white free moves attacking them - we're saying they're strong enough to attack with, remember?

Here is where I think you make your first mistake. Having pushed white into a corner and played the strong cap at L7, you now back down with L9 which squeezes white through a small gap and makes the L7 stone much less useful - a wasted move. I think your situation is fine in principle, but it won't be if you back down now.

I really don't know what is best, but it would seem appropriate to try something like P8. See variations. The idea is to make your own stones strong whilst taking important shape points that change how you can attack L8.

In contrast, your chosen move makes very little use of L7, making it into a mistake.]
(
;B[kk];W[jl];B[ij]C[So you ran, but in the process abandoned your attack, and made white quite strong because you gave him free moves by squeezing him through a small hole. Now white M4 area is a problem for you.]
;W[lp];B[mq];W[lq];B[ro];W[gp]C[The last couple of moves are sort-of-okay, but you can see how one slack move has given white time to start attacking large areas of the baord at once.]
;B[dn]C[A calm response.

It *might* be guilty of following your opponent around the board a bit though. The top right is still far from settled, but white is hoping you won't remember to attack it. I'm not sure what's the best attack, but something like N15 probably can't hurt to to cut.]
;W[hl]
;B[gn]C[Perhaps E3 is a bigger shape point.]
;W[hn]
;B[go]C[Walking into the hane at the head of two stones, in return for what? 2 points at E6 and F6? Just don't play this move!]
;W[ho];B[er];W[gj]C[You still have points like P8 which are big shape points between two groups. Though nevertheless, white's ability to attack here is another symptom of your big mistake earlier, and your playing E2 instead of big fighty moves in the top right which wouldn't leave white time to attack.

I've added several variations of what seem like more powerful types of moves to play, with better plans. The key is to make good shape in all of them. I'm not saying that my suggestions are all the most powerful moves available, I'm sure someone stronger can tell me which of mine are wrong ]
(
;B[hi]C[This move puts you into a bit of a forced sequence. That forced sequence ends with white cutting off the H15 group a bit. Oh no!

I hope it's clear to you that H11 is a very bad shape in general, even if it saves your group. It leaves many bad shape points like L11 for white, and asks white to play G11.

This is why it's so important to be aware of white's *own* bad shape points, like P8, which make yourself eyeshape. You can probably even make two eyes in the R9 area if you have to, though at the cost of hurting Q14. White has been slowly gaining a lot of ground just because instead of playing white's bad shape points, you've only been thinking about your own.]
;W[hg];B[gi];W[ge];B[hf];W[gf];B[ig];W[ih];B[jg];W[jh];B[kf]
;W[kg];B[if];W[lf];B[le];W[kd];B[mf];W[jf];B[ld];W[kf];B[kc]
;W[lc];B[mc];W[lb];B[me];W[mb];B[gg];W[hh];B[hq];W[hp];B[iq]
;W[ob];B[pb];W[oe];B[of];W[pe];B[qe];W[qd];B[rd];W[qc];B[re]
;W[qg];B[qf];W[rc];B[rg];W[rh];B[sc];W[od];B[sf];W[eq];B[sd]
;W[dq];B[fr];W[cp];B[co];W[ep];B[bp];W[do];B[eo];W[jr];B[cr]
;W[cq];B[bq];W[dr];B[ds];W[br];B[bs];W[cs];B[kr];W[lr];B[cr]
;W[bo];B[dp];W[cs];B[kq];W[ks];B[cr];W[do];B[ar];W[cn];B[qi]
;W[oq];B[op];W[nr];B[rm];W[qq];B[qh];W[ch];B[cg];W[dh];B[fj]
;W[dc];B[ec];W[cd];B[ce];W[ed];B[de];W[fc];B[eb];W[cc];B[ee]
;W[fd];B[eg];W[gh];B[eh];W[bj];B[cj];W[bk]
)
(
;B[gi]C[This move asks white to cut, but it makes good shape for black if he does, so the idea would be that white ends up cut and black ends up with eyes.]
;W[hi];B[hj];W[gk];B[kh]C[If this happens, you can start mucking around trying to capture the cutting stone in a clever way. Just a suggestion!]
)
(
;B[if]C[This one makes your top group fairly strong and hurts white's groups in the area. White now gets a chance to attack, but the plan is that now black only has one group to care about, and that white is not strong enough to attack too badly.]
(
;W[ki];B[kj];W[ji]
)
(
;W[hi]
;B[ii]C[Can white cut now? Should he...]
)
)
(
;B[ol]C[Just to illustrate the good shape points I feel you have available...]
;W[nn]C[White can try for P5 in sente, but that leaves weaknesses for him.]
;B[ql];W[rn];B[om];W[on];B[ll];W[lm];B[ml];W[nl];B[lk];W[nm]
;B[nk]C[Even in this clumsy case, it will be hard for white to rob black of eyes.]
)
)
(
;B[ol]C[White probably wants to connect somehow]
;W[nn]C[If for instance white plays this way, black has a couple of options..]
(
;B[ll]C[Black can try this most powerful cut. I think it's okay, but remains complicated. And I tend to be overoptimistic.]
;W[lk];B[kk];W[jl];B[ml];W[lm];B[nk]C[...maybe black can play somethin g like this. Now black is strong in the middle, and has made an important cut. White still has a chance to show power by attacking the O4 stones and L7 cutting stone at the same time, but I think things are okay for black.]
)
(
;B[jm]C[The standard fighting move is here. Now M8 is a big problem for white, so he has to fix it, and black has time to get out.]
)
)
)

I've tried to illustrate where white gains points from important mistakes. The three main ideas in the area I covered before running out of time are:
- Move 22 is powerful. They way you follow it up is antipowerful.
- Moves like move 40 are big. Are you sure the top right isn't bigger?
- Move 42 is a terrible shape move, even if it saves your stone. Think about playing more powerfully, even if it seems riskier.

[Uberdude]

n3 = please separate my stones.
l9 = please separate my stones.

[karaklis]

Thanks amnal, that was helpful.

[daal]

The first move that looks questionable to my kyu-eyes is 22, which feels thin, instead of pressuring w's own thinness. Then ... move 40 you choose to protect territory instead of protecting your weakest stones.

- Move 22 is powerful. They way you follow it up is antipowerful.
- Moves like move 40 are big. Are you sure the top right isn't bigger?

So much for my kyu eyes

[cyclops]

Maybe "the ABC of attack and Defense" of Michael Redmond applies here for your move 6.
I copied some of his variants into the sgf.
All later comments and variations are Amnal's. I liked them a lot.

[Bill Spight]

This is a game that I lost against a 6d with 8 handi stones.
That means that I have made at least 8 major mistakes worth a handi stone each.

Yes, it was a great teaching game, but nevertheless it's frustrating to lose with such a huge amount of handi stones..

All comments are welcome.

Without looking at the game, the rank difference suggests that the handicap was insufficient. You were supposed to lose. You might actually have lost by less than you should have. I remember taking four stones from a 2 dan and losing by only 40 points. I was thrilled! (I was a DDK then. )

Also, it is probably not the case that you made at least 8 errors worth a stone each. To lose with 8 stones, an average error of 1 point per move will do. OC, we do not expect the errors to even out, but you could easily have made only a few errors greater than 5 points, with no errors as large as a handicap stone.

OC, recognizing and eliminating large errors is good. But there is also the idea of playing up to yourself. Difficult fights which are beyond your ability can lead to large errors. But if you can avoid errors that are within your ability not to make, if you play up to yourself, you will be hard to beat. In a game last year I misread a semeai, leading to a sizable loss, but I still won by 8 points.

[tapir]

L9, N3, G6, G5, E2, M16, L17, N17, H3.

You are supposed to lose even with 9 stones when your opponent is 12 stones stronger.

I tend to disagree with Bill: Your problem is not that there is fighting in the game where you may misread, the problem is that you let White decide where the fights are. I would blame coffee break moves like E2, your opening moves were pretty good but they are only as good as their follow up. There is no quick fix for reading, playing the right attacking move etc., but when you decide where it is suitable for you to fight, you will be surprised how much easier reading gets. In fact, I believe you were afraid to pick fights with the opponent, given he is so much stronger, which enabled him to pick the fights where he wanted.

[Bill Spight]

OK, now I have looked at the game. Some comments on the early play.

(;ST[2]GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]SZ[19]AP[GOWrite:2.2.21]AB[jp][pj][dd][jd][dp][pp][dj][pd]PM[0]FG[259:]
;W[nc]
;B[oc]C[*** This signifies your intent to attack this stone.]
;W[nd]
;B[pf]C[*** A dual purpose play, making territory while attacking.]
;W[gd]
;B[df]
;W[qn]
(
;B[qo]C[*** Attack! See variations.]
;W[pn]
;B[np]
;W[ph]C[*** White has complicated the game. He now has four weak groups, while Black has two isolated stones. Time to plan. Black should dictate play. (As much as possible.) White's weakest stone is the last one played, and is a natural target. See variation for next.]
(
;B[nj]C[*** A good move. But what is the plan?]
;W[nh]
;B[nf]C[*** Good!]
;W[ke]C[*** Excellent! What is Black's plan? He started out attacking two groups in the top right, but this play makes that difficult. See variation for next.]
(
;B[je]
;W[jf]
(
;B[he]C[*** Pretty well abandons the oringinal idea. Not that that is bad, but White is dictating the play. See variation.]
;W[mm]C[*** White is dictating the play. ]
;B[lj]
;W[lh]
;B[km]C[*** Excellent!]
;W[mk]
;B[mj]
;W[kl]C[*** What is the plan? In exchange for weakening the stone in the top left, White is stronge elsewhere. Black needs to secure his stones on the right side.]
(
;B[kk]C[*** As amnal has pointed out, this is bad. For one thing, it lets White out. See variation.]
;W[jl]
;B[ij]C[*** Good.]
;W[lp]C[*** Again, time to plan. White has been strengthened in the region, but this stone is weak. See variation for next.]
(
;B[mq]C[*** Very bad. Running scared. Letting White dictate play.]
;W[lq]
(
;B[ro]C[*** See variation.]
;W[gp]C[*** Time to plan again. What to do about Black's weak stones? Do not let them die a dog's death.]
(
;B[dn]C[*** No! No! No! See variation. End of comments.]
;W[hl]
;B[gn]
;W[hn]
;B[go]
;W[ho]
;B[er]
;W[gj]
;B[hi]
;W[hg]
;B[gi]
;W[ge]
;B[hf]
;W[gf]
;B[ig]
;W[ih]
;B[jg]
;W[jh]
;B[kf]
;W[kg]
;B[if]
;W[lf]
;B[le]
;W[kd]
;B[mf]
;W[jf]
;B[ld]
;W[kf]
;B[kc]
;W[lc]
;B[mc]
;W[lb]
;B[me]
;W[mb]
;B[gg]
;W[hh]
;B[hq]
;W[hp]
;B[iq]
;W[ob]
;B[pb]
;W[oe]
;B[of]
;W[pe]
;B[qe]
;W[qd]
;B[rd]
;W[qc]
;B[re]
;W[qg]
;B[qf]
;W[rc]
;B[rg]
;W[rh]
;B[sc]
;W[od]
;B[sf]
;W[eq]
;B[sd]
;W[dq]
;B[fr]
;W[cp]
;B[co]
;W[ep]
;B[bp]
;W[do]
;B[eo]
;W[jr]
;B[cr]
;W[cq]
;B[bq]
;W[dr]
;B[ds]
;W[br]
;B[bs]
;W[cs]
;B[kr]
;W[lr]
;B[cr]
;W[bo]
;B[dp]
;W[cs]
;B[kq]
;W[ks]
;B[cr]
;W[do]
;B[ar]
;W[cn]
;B[qi]
;W[oq]
;B[op]
;W[nr]
;B[rm]
;W[qq]
;B[qh]
;W[ch]
;B[cg]
;W[dh]
;B[fj]
;W[dc]
;B[ec]
;W[cd]
;B[ce]
;W[ed]
;B[de]
;W[fc]
;B[eb]
;W[cc]
;B[ee]
;W[fd]
;B[eg]
;W[gh]
;B[eh]
;W[bj]
;B[cj]
;W[bk]
)
(
;B[iq]C[*** One possibility. Prevents the jump attachment by White.]
;W[fq]C[*** Prevents the jump attachment by Black.]
;B[mo]C[*** Attack!]
;W[ko]
;B[in]
;W[jm]
;B[jn]
;W[kn]
;B[fo]C[*** Attack!]
)

)
(
;B[mo]
;W[lo]
;B[ln]
;W[mn]
;B[ko]
;W[oq]
;B[op]
;W[mr]
;B[nq]
;W[nr]
;B[pq]
;W[or]
;B[pr]
;W[jr]
;B[hl]
)

)
(
;B[mo]
;W[lo]
;B[ln]
;W[mn]
;B[ko]
;W[lr]
;B[jr]
;W[oq]
;B[op]
(
;W[pq]
;B[nq]
;W[nr]
;B[qq]
;W[qr]
;B[or]
;W[pr]
;B[mr]
;W[os]
;B[lq]
)
(
;W[nq]
;B[pq]
;W[mp]
;B[no]
;W[pr]
;B[qr]
;W[os]
;B[rq]C[*** Easy life. Keeping up the attack.]
)

)

)
(
;B[jj]C[*** Simple and strong.]
;W[jl]
;B[hj]C[*** Threatens White over the board.]
)

)
(
;B[kf]C[*** Hell or high water! If Black loses his stones on the top side, he should have a strong attack against White's stones on the right side in return. See continuation for a couple of possibilities.]
(
;W[lf]
;B[kg]
;W[lg]
;B[kh]
;W[if]
;B[le]
;W[kd]
;B[ld]
;W[kc]
;B[lc]
(
;W[lb]
;B[kb]
;W[jc]
;B[jb]
;W[ic]
;B[mb]
)
(
;W[kb]
;B[lb]
;W[ic]
;B[mi]
)

(
;W[jc]
;B[lh]
;W[mg]
;B[lb]
)

)
(
;W[le]
;B[kg]
(
;W[if]
;B[lc]
)
(
;W[kc]
;B[if]
;W[lh]
;B[nn]
)

)

(
;W[kd]
;B[kc]
;W[jc]
;B[ic]
;W[jb]
;B[lc]
;W[lf]
;B[kg]
;W[le]
;B[ib]
)

)

)
(
;B[mg]
;W[je]
;B[mh]C[*** Let's make a deal. We figure that the Black stone on the top side will die, but can White save both groups on the right? Let him prove it.]
)

)
(
;B[og]C[*** Contnues the attack against White's two initial stones, as well as White's last stone.]
;W[oh]
;B[nh]
;W[oj]
;B[oi]
;W[pi]
;B[ni]
;W[qj]
;B[pk]
;W[qk]
;B[pl]
;W[ql]
;B[jf]C[*** Dual attack! As well as making a center framework.]
)

)
(
;B[nq]C[*** Placid, but avoids strengthening the White stone. ]
)

(
;B[jf]C[*** Attacks both groups on the top side.]
;W[nq]
;B[oo]
;W[qq]
;B[nf]C[*** Attack!]
)

)

Main focus:

Make a plan. Do not let White dictate play.

[karaklis]

Thanks Bill! That was very insightful. Regarding the weak stones at the bottom left I made the wrong plan. I thought I could abandon them and make territory at the left side by trying to reactivate the stones. But turning the weak stones into strong attacking stones was a real eye opener.

[Bill Spight]

Thanks Bill! That was very insightful. Regarding the weak stones at the bottom left I made the wrong plan. I thought I could abandon them and make territory at the left side by trying to reactivate the stones. But turning the weak stones into strong attacking stones was a real eye opener.

De nada.

White can complicate that last variation. In particular, after Black plays the knight's move, a White jump to G-06 instead of saving the White stones right away looks better than what I showed. But attacking White's weakness is still a good idea.