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#159 - opex vs Nome

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:22 am
by opex
Hello!

I'm playing Nome on two stones, AGA rules, 0.5 komi; no books, joseki dictionaries, etc.
Hidden comments, as usual, should not be read by players until after the game, unless explicitly stated otherwise.

This is my first Malkovich game ever, so I expect some new exciting experience. It should be really different from ordinary games to explain reasoning. I hope stronger players will find some time to comment on my thinking and help me grow :) I welcome any questions, from weaker players learning from the game as well!

So, Nome, お願いします (onegai shimasu)

I naturally want to occupy an empty corner, so i need to choose the exact point.
From my experience in handi games, it is hard to play calmly against two stones and build enough territory. So i want to play for thickness and find an opportunity to attack something. If i play san-san, i may expect black later to press me with 4-4 and gain nice influence, which will be hard to play against. I have nothing to say against komoku, but i think i should develop fast here, and hoshi feels right for this.
I expect Nome to answer in the opposite corner :)


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Captures: black - 0, white - 0.
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #159 - opex vs Nome

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:39 am
by Nome
Hey Everyone!
I'm Nome and this is my first time playing this kind of game or using the life in 19x19 forums. I thought this format seemed interesting, and I think when I play normal games I find myself forgetting to think too often, so I think this is a good way to try and help correct that problem. opex already explained all of the rules and stuff, so I guess that's all for now.

Have a fun game, opex.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Captures: black - 0, white - 0.
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So this move doesn't have anything to complicated behind it. I don't like playing double 4-4 as black, so I generally prefer to have at least one 3-4 stone on the board. If he approaches one of my 4-4 corners I can get sente to enclose my corner. If he wants to approach my 3-4 stone directly that is fine with me since it doesn't also allow him an extension from the one corner he has.

Re: #159 - opex vs Nome

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:22 pm
by opex
Well, an asymmetrical move. If i recall correctly, the general fuseki theory gives priority to approaching non-symmetrical corners. So, i have to choose a kakari on the lower right corner. As we decided not to consult joseki dictionaries, I'll go with the most familiar move:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm3 Captures: black - 0, white - 0.
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #159 - opex vs Nome

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:32 pm
by Nome
With this approach, I'd like to play out this joseki because if opex completes it, I'll be left with sente to approach his open 4-4 stone and start trying to develop something. If he doesn't finish it then I will potentially have something to harass later. Obviously there are other possibilities after 4, but this is what I am familiar with so we'll see what happens.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm3 Captures: black - 0, white - 0.
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm3 Captures: black - 0, white - 0.
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:41 pm
by EdLee
:)

Re: #159 - opex vs Nome

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:32 am
by opex
EdLee wrote: :)
Hm.. What could it mean? :)

I'm going to play r6 and expect r4 (the only joseki i know :D).

I have read somewhere that after r4 one may play a probe at o17 to select between q6 and q7.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5 If black replies with keima,
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

the joseki is up to 11, after which as black i would like to enclose the corner with 12, and white would probably extend to 13, though this seems ok for white, so black will find another way :)

If black replies with ogeima r13, then q6 o3 r10 will be the joseki. The point here is to keep black stone two spaces apart from white stone so that black can't threaten to invade severely into white's three space extension.

Black may ignore o17 and play q6 himself... Then I should think about double approach at q14 or r14. I don't like this, therefore, this should happen :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5 Captures: black - 0, white - 0.
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #159 - opex vs Nome

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:10 am
by Sur
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5 If black replies with keima,
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 3 . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is very bad for white. :w13: is overplay and this looks like a good punishment.

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:25 am
by EdLee
opex, it means good game to both of you. :)

Re: #159 - opex vs Nome

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:30 am
by opex
Ah, thanks :)

I'm glad to see that our game starts to get commented on, hope it continues :)

Re: #159 - opex vs Nome

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:13 am
by Nome
Not much to say here. This is what I wanted to play so far. I still want sente so I can play a move on the left side, but now I am debating whether or not to approach the 4-4 or if I just want to take C10. I think I might be leaning towards C10 as it would leave a play around F17 as an option.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5 Captures: black - 0, white - 0.
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #159 - opex vs Nome

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:14 am
by Nome
I didn't realize how tempting it is to want to read the comments.
Also, Thanks to everyone who is watching or has commented so far.

Re: #159 - opex vs Nome

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:16 am
by opex
I'll venture the probe
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm7 Captures: black - 0, white - 0.
$$ ---------------------------------------
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #159 - opex vs Nome

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:19 am
by Nome
So he tenki'd here but like I said before I am fine with this since I think he will need to come back to these stones later. For now I am pretty sure I am content with just backing off here. If he resonds with 9 below, I will play away because pushing into my corner and allowing me to take 12 seems bad for him.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm7 Captures: black - 0, white - 0.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
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$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . 6 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If he plays something like this, I still think I am okay because I think omitting 15 as white could create problems later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm7 Captures: black - 0, white - 0.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . 1 . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . , 7 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What I am expecting (mostly because it's how I would play as white here) after 8 is for him to just back off or for him to tenuki somewhere. We'll have to see.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm7 Captures: black - 0, white - 0.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 3 . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I also think trying to pincer here is problematic as well, if I play to get this wall, then he has sente to make the wall I built useless. I don't think I can omit 14 in this sequence either to try and capitalize on my wall either, so I'm just going to avoid the pincer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm7 Captures: black - 0, white - 0.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . 5 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 6 X 4 . . |
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm7 Captures: black - 0, white - 0.
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Re: #159 - opex vs Nome

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:34 am
by opex
Interestingly, what should i have done if :b8: had been at o16?..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm9 Captures: black - 0, white - 0.
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Re: #159 - opex vs Nome

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:09 am
by illluck
I don't agree with Sur's comment that 13 is overplay and very bad for white, seems pretty normal to me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm5 If black replies with keima,
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]