Life In 19x19

In the nearer future people might use machines to cheat and boost their ranks. Any long term solution to prevent it?

No, you can't prevent it. Any reason why would anybody do that and why should anybody try to prevent it? Don't really see the point.

Why would you want to prevent it? You're not playing against a person, you're playing against an account.

Why do you care what is on the other end, as long as it is consistent? It could be a person, it could be a person with computer. It could be a dog. But as long as the dog plays a consistent 10kyu strength, how does it really affect you?

I don't care if my opponent 'cheats', just as long as he cheats consistently.

Sur wrote:No, you can't prevent it. Any reason why would anybody do that and why should anybody try to prevent it? Don't really see the point.

Because people like feeling like they're better than they actually are. Same as cheating in any game. Why do it? What does it really get you? You don't improve, you're just cheating to make yourself look better. It really comes down to image - people want to be seen a certain way, and sadly some feel they have to cheat to accomplish that image.

Either way, though, I agree completely with Joaz. In the end, does it really matter for you? If they're consistent (and really, even if they aren't!) it's one game out of many. You can run into people sandbagging without a computer program already.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:Why would you want to prevent it? You're not playing against a person, you're playing against an account.

Why do you care what is on the other end, as long as it is consistent? It could be a person, it could be a person with computer. It could be a dog. But as long as the dog plays a consistent 10kyu strength, how does it really affect you?

I don't care if my opponent 'cheats', just as long as he cheats consistently.

The consistency is the issue though, someone could very easily use a bot some of the time, get a rank they like then play until the rank drops and then use the bot again.

In answer to the original question though, this is a problem that chess has been dealing with for a while, and they have been developing tools which determine the likelihood that an opponent is using a computer to select moves.

EDIT: To be clear, it's not that I'm bothered by the idea of some person cheating. The purpose of rank is allow good matchups, if people start using bots in the above fashion, rank is not a good indicator for the quality of a matchup

Sure bots are getting a lot stronger recently so the number of people who could benefit from using a bot is increasing, but there's no reason this couldn't already happen. A 20k could use GnuGo to make himself 10k ages ago.

Uberdude wrote:Sure bots are getting a lot stronger recently so the number of people who could benefit from using a bot is increasing, but there's no reason this couldn't already happen. A 20k could use GnuGo to make himself 10k ages ago.

Those bots are running on serious hardware though. Crazy Stone is 5d KGS on a 24 core machine. Zen's hardware makes this look like a calculator. Versus Chess where a modern engine running on a regular home machine is extremely powerful. Go bots have a very long way to go.

^On a perfectly ordinary machine you can run a bot that's stronger than the vast majority of players. On my old crappy machine MFoG can play 6 stones stronger than me (KGS 7k), so it would certainly be useful for cheating. It has been this way for a while.

As bots get stronger the proportion of players who would 'benefit' from using them increases - but that proportion is already a majority.

Personally, I don't see it as a problem.

I see nothing "irrational" about wanting to play other humans and being annoyed that some humans are secretly consulting other aids while playing. If you sign on to KGS with the intent to play other people, and that's not what you're getting, that's as much of a reason to get annoyed as many things we get annoyed about. If you're purging your life of negative emotions, then I guess you shouldn't be annoyed. But otherwise, go ahead.

hyperpape wrote:I see nothing "irrational" about wanting to play other humans and being annoyed that some humans are secretly consulting other aids while playing. If you sign on to KGS with the intent to play other people, and that's not what you're getting, that's as much of a reason to get annoyed as many things we get annoyed about. If you're purging your life of negative emotions, then I guess you shouldn't be annoyed. But otherwise, go ahead.

I guess I should expand on what I said earlier. The use of a bot is just another way of cheating. Sandbagging, reverse sandbagging - in the end, you are creating an unfavorable situation for someone else.

I'm all for coming up with means of detecting them and immediately banning them, if possible; but, this will always be an ongoing problem. It's the reason why games are constantly patched, and why you have to have admins in the first place. Using my jerk rule - you can always count on jerks being there ready to ruin your experience.

And I'm constantly working on purging my life of negative emotions; but I'm very competitive and rather than being calm, I usually end up more like --> (plus a little more rage ).

schultz wrote:... The use of a bot is just another way of cheating. Sandbagging, reverse sandbagging - in the end, you are creating an unfavorable situation for someone else.

If the bot+human plays consistently, how does it harm anyone?

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

schultz wrote:... The use of a bot is just another way of cheating. Sandbagging, reverse sandbagging - in the end, you are creating an unfavorable situation for someone else.

If the bot+human plays consistently, how does it harm anyone?

Well, for one thing, you're sure not getting a review from a bot.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:Why would you want to prevent it? You're not playing against a person, you're playing against an account.

- Aren't we all just accounts? I'm a carbon-based chat program, who goes online to play a game every so seldom. I'm afraid of non-consistency, yet consistency makes me bored.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:If the bot+human plays consistently, how does it harm anyone?

may people also say that playing against bots hurts your game.
Also if I wanted to play against a bot I would go to the computer go room

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

schultz wrote:... The use of a bot is just another way of cheating. Sandbagging, reverse sandbagging - in the end, you are creating an unfavorable situation for someone else.

If the bot+human plays consistently, how does it harm anyone?

See my original agreement with you. My second post was me amending my statement about when they are not consistent (ie. creating the unfavorable conditions).

Also +1 for jts response.