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What is the Status of this corner? Is it Seki?
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:36 am
by Charlie
What is the status of the corner shown below?
$$Wc White to Play
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X O X . . . .
$$ | . X O O X . . . .
$$ | O O O X . X . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White to Play
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O . O . . . . .
$$ | X X X O X . . . .
$$ | . X O O X . . . .
$$ | O O O X . X . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
My first instinct is that white is dead.
Re: What is the Status of this corner? Is it Seki?
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:42 am
by Txewì
B can kill by filling in the outside liberties, then playing A17. If W captures at that point, B plays B18 and it's a dead shape.
Re: What is the Status of this corner? Is it Seki?
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:04 am
by blade90
Here I will explain it in more detail.
White is dead:
White can only play these 3 moves (a, b or c). But Black will ignore them all. Even if white plays all 3 white is still dead.
$$Wc White's moves
$$ ------------------
$$ | b O a O . . . . .
$$ | X X X O X . . . .
$$ | c X O O X . . . .
$$ | O O O X . X . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White's moves
$$ ------------------
$$ | b O a O . . . . .
$$ | X X X O X . . . .
$$ | c X O O X . . . .
$$ | O O O X . X . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Let's say white played all of the above moves and black answered by filling in the outside libertys:
$$Wc White captures with 5
$$ ------------------
$$ | 3 O 1 O 2 . . . .
$$ | X X X O X . . . .
$$ | 5 X O O X . . . .
$$ | O O O X . X . . .
$$ | 4 X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White captures with 5
$$ ------------------
$$ | 3 O 1 O 2 . . . .
$$ | X X X O X . . . .
$$ | 5 X O O X . . . .
$$ | O O O X . X . . .
$$ | 4 X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Then this is the result:
$$Bc Since white captured with the marked stone it is black's move
$$ ------------------
$$ | O O O O X . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X . . . .
$$ | W . O O X . . . .
$$ | O O O X . X . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Since white captured with the marked stone it is black's move
$$ ------------------
$$ | O O O O X . . . .
$$ | . 1 . O X . . . .
$$ | W . O O X . . . .
$$ | O O O X . X . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Black now plays at

and White is dead.
Re: What is the Status of this corner? Is it Seki?
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:29 am
by Bill Spight
Obviously, if White captures Black White dies. So is it seki, or can White make it seki?
$$Wc Seki?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O W O B . . . .
$$ | X X X O X . . . .
$$ | . X O O X . . . .
$$ | O O O X . X . . .
$$ | B X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Seki?
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O W O B . . . .
$$ | X X X O X . . . .
$$ | . X O O X . . . .
$$ | O O O X . X . . .
$$ | B X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]
This, then, is the critical position. It is the only one with two shared liberties where the outside liberties are filled.
$$Bc Dead shape
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O O O X . . . .
$$ | X B X O X . . . .
$$ | 1 X O O X . . . .
$$ | O O O X . X . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Dead shape
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O O O X . . . .
$$ | X B X O X . . . .
$$ | 1 X O O X . . . .
$$ | O O O X . X . . .
$$ | X X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

almost fills the White eye. If White captures the Black stones Black has an inside play at

to kill. White is dead.
Re: What is the Status of this corner? Is it Seki?
Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:01 pm
by blade90
@Bill Spight: You also need to add that black does not need to play at 'a' after white played the marked stone.
Even with outside liberties, Black does not need to play 'a'. But the fact that you can later play 'a' is the reason why it is not seki.
$$Bc Dead shape
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O O O . . . . .
$$ | X X X O X . . . .
$$ | a X O O X . . . .
$$ | O O O X . X . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Dead shape
$$ ------------------
$$ | . O O O . . . . .
$$ | X X X O X . . . .
$$ | a X O O X . . . .
$$ | O O O X . X . . .
$$ | . X X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]