Life In 19x19

I'm new to playing Go and in the market to buy a desktop Go program, but having read all the literature and reviews for these respective programs I'm still at a loss as to which would suit me best.

I downloaded MFoG and SmartGo and tried the demo versions of both. SmartGo's interface was very confusing. MFoG seems simpler, but was perhaps not as full featured. Sadly Go++ doesn't have a trial version so I can't try it before purchase, which is a distinct negative when I'm looking to spend $40+ for a program. (I have rejected Crazystones because it requires internet access to play.)

What I want is a program that will allow me to replay and study games and problems but is also powerful enough to practice against when I lack access to the internet. I need something which can help me improve as a player to a reasonable level; perhaps single-digit kyu at some distant point. I don't need an uber-Go player that can beat all other programs; I need one which can teach me.

Anyone have thoughts or experience with these programs, pro or con?

Smartgo pro is my favorite study tool, but it sounds like you want a computer to play against.

For that, I think MFoG is the best of those 3.

shapenaji wrote:Smartgo pro is my favorite study tool, but it sounds like you want a computer to play against.

For that, I think MFoG is the best of those 3.

Could you elaborate on that a bit?

shapenaji wrote:Smartgo pro is my favorite study tool, but it sounds like you want a computer to play against.

For that, I think MFoG is the best of those 3.

Could you elaborate on that a bit?

Where did you hear that CrazyStone required an internet connection? It doesn't. One of the iPhone apps allows playing against the program on a server, but it is just an option and doesn't apply to the computer software.

I have used SmartGo, MFoG, and CrazyStone quite a bit. They each have pros and cons. As shapenaji said, if you're primarily looking for a computer to play against, MFoG and CrazyStone are your best bet. You won't outgrow either of them (in terms of playing strength) for quite some time--they are both very strong.

In my estimation, on my computer, CrazyStone is a bit stronger than MFoG, but not by a whole lot. They are both dan strength. For some reason that I cannot identify, I often enjoy playing CrazyStone more. But, like I said, I can't really explain why. MFoG has MANY more functions than CrazyStone. You can load/save SGF files in crazy stone and edit/review to some extent, and play against it. But that's about it. MFoG has tons more...tons.

SmartGo has a weaker go playing engine, but, in my opinion, superior pattern matching and database management. The interface isn't terribly confusing after you use it for awhile (at least, that was my experience). I load my database of over 100,000 pro games (primarily from my GoGoD subscription), and can search for pro games in which a pattern appears. You can tweak it a bunch too (exclude certain stones from consideration, etc.). It also shows what moves are played from that position, and ranks them in order of most common. You can also have SmartGo only consider games from a certain time period, etc. All of this is great, but it doesn't sound like what you're looking for.

judicata wrote:Where did you hear that CrazyStone required an internet connection? It doesn't. One of the iPhone apps allows playing against the program on a server, but it is just an option and doesn't apply to the computer.

According to their website CrazyStone must make contact via Internet every time it is started in order to validate that it is a legitimate copy. Not even Microsoft ever did anything that stupid with purchased software.

I do appreciate your info regarding the various programs and your experience with them. At the moment I am leaning somewhat towards MFoG but I'll wait for a few more days and search for additional reviews.

SCWillson wrote:According to their website CrazyStone must make contact via Internet every time it is started in order to validate that it is a legitimate copy. Not even Microsoft ever did anything that stupid with purchased software.

Ack!! Thank you for pointing this out. They must have changed it with the new version. Fortunately, my 2011 version does not have such a ridiculous requirement. Here's a link for those interested. You say "not even" Microsoft, but Blizzard did this last week with Diablo III--that's going over really well.

Based on this, I can no longer recommend this program to anyone. In truth, you cannot "buy" this software--you can only pay $80 to play on it until Unbalance chooses or its servers go down. One reason I even HAVE a go-playing program is to have an opponent when I don't have an internet connection. This is outrageous.

For go playing, MFoG is a good alternative. Or Zen (or "Zenith") if you have a friend in Japan who can buy a copy for you (no need to worry about language issues--easy to understand interface in English, and no problems installing on Win 7).

Remi - if you read this: As I recall, you just license your engine to Unabalance and do not have any influence over the distribution (or interface, etc.). And I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even mention this to you before doing it. But if you can do anything about this, please do. You wrote a great engine, and Unbalance is causing severe damage. I can guarantee I'll never buy another version as long as it has such an anti-consumer policy.

EDIT: Here is the language from Unbalance's website: "Every time you start Crazy Stone 2012, your PC must be connected to the internet for activation by serial number,but any personal information will not be obtained in this process."

judicata wrote:

SCWillson wrote:According to their website CrazyStone must make contact via Internet every time it is started in order to validate that it is a legitimate copy. Not even Microsoft ever did anything that stupid with purchased software.

Ack!! Thank you for pointing this out. They must have changed it with the new version. Fortunately, my 2011 version does not have such a ridiculous requirement. Here's a link for those interested. You say "not even" Microsoft, but Blizzard did this last week with Diablo III--that's going over [i]really[/] well.

Based on this, I can no longer recommend this program to anyone. In truth, you cannot "buy" this software--you can only pay $80 to play on it until Unbalance chooses or its servers go down. One reason I even HAVE a go-playing program is to have an opponent when I don't have an internet connection. This is outrageous.

For go playing, MFoG is a good alternative. Or Zen (or "Zenith") if you have a friend in Japan who can buy a copy for you (no need to worry about language issues--easy to understand interface in English, and no problems installing on Win 7).

Remi - if you read this: As I recall, you just license your engine to Unabalance and do not have any influence over the distribution (or interface, etc.). And I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even mention this to you before doing it. But if you can do anything about this, please do. You wrote a great engine, and Unbalance is causing severe damage. I can guarantee I'll never buy another version as long as it has such an anti-consumer policy.

EDIT: Here is the language from Unbalance's website: "Every time you start Crazy Stone 2012, your PC must be connected to the internet for activation by serial number,but any personal information will not be obtained in this process."

I can't wait to see what anti-consumer idea they come up with next, "Every time you start the program, the testicle clamps must be firmly attached, failure to do so will result in the deaths of your loved ones"

judicata wrote:For go playing, MFoG is a good alternative. Or Zen (or "Zenith") if you have a friend in Japan who can buy a copy for you (no need to worry about language issues--easy to understand interface in English, and no problems installing on Win 7).

Do you have a link on Amazon Japan for this? There are a lot of different programs available for playing Go that I have seen here. I did not see one that was called Zen or Zenith, but I could be missing it.

Thank you.

Go_Japan wrote:

judicata wrote:For go playing, MFoG is a good alternative. Or Zen (or "Zenith") if you have a friend in Japan who can buy a copy for you (no need to worry about language issues--easy to understand interface in English, and no problems installing on Win 7).

Do you have a link on Amazon Japan for this? There are a lot of different programs available for playing Go that I have seen here. I did not see one that was called Zen or Zenith, but I could be missing it.

Thank you.

Here's the 2011 version and it's amazon link

pookpooi wrote:Here's the 2011 version and it's amazon link

Thank you for the link.

The issue has been raised on the computer go mailing list within the past day or two. So Remi should be aware. But if this was done without his knowledge, he may not wish to comment until he has had assessed his situation with the distributor.

judicata wrote:

SCWillson wrote:According to their website CrazyStone must make contact via Internet every time it is started in order to validate that it is a legitimate copy. Not even Microsoft ever did anything that stupid with purchased software.

Ack!! Thank you for pointing this out. They must have changed it with the new version. Fortunately, my 2011 version does not have such a ridiculous requirement. Here's a link for those interested. You say "not even" Microsoft, but Blizzard did this last week with Diablo III--that's going over really well.

Based on this, I can no longer recommend this program to anyone. In truth, you cannot "buy" this software--you can only pay $80 to play on it until Unbalance chooses or its servers go down. One reason I even HAVE a go-playing program is to have an opponent when I don't have an internet connection. This is outrageous.

For go playing, MFoG is a good alternative. Or Zen (or "Zenith") if you have a friend in Japan who can buy a copy for you (no need to worry about language issues--easy to understand interface in English, and no problems installing on Win 7).

Remi - if you read this: As I recall, you just license your engine to Unabalance and do not have any influence over the distribution (or interface, etc.). And I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even mention this to you before doing it. But if you can do anything about this, please do. You wrote a great engine, and Unbalance is causing severe damage. I can guarantee I'll never buy another version as long as it has such an anti-consumer policy.

EDIT: Here is the language from Unbalance's website: "Every time you start Crazy Stone 2012, your PC must be connected to the internet for activation by serial number,but any personal information will not be obtained in this process."

Out of curiosity how good is MFOG for analysis these days, how good is the problem selection and would you recommend it as a playing partner? Thanks.

Nobody has any thoughts or experience with GO++?

I looked at the Amazon Japan page but my Japanese skills (being non-existent) kept me from understanding it. Anyone get the gist of it?

I just looked up exchange rates. Zenith costs over $112 (not including any shipping costs) converted from yen to dollars. Ouch! That puts it at twice my budget.

I have Go++ deluxe, this program allows you to change many options for the programms playing style.
Here a screenshot:


With default settings and the highest Level it plays very solid and surprisingly fast.
Here is a game with the first 27 moves I played against it with all the settings shown in the screenshot.
In this game Go++ is black.


If you are looking for a programm that plays specific style then this is your best bet.
I never played it at lv 5 except the small game above which I did not finish, but lv 1 and 2 where very helpfull when I was a KGS 12 kyu.