Life In 19x19

Can one be more (not exclusively of course!) territory oriented and still open with nirensei or does that counter the strategy of nirensei?

Are there any high dans on KGS (IGS, Tygem) who play nirensei regularly, also with black? I know a guy "mpepe16", 6d, who plays nirensei always, both with back and white, but mostly with an heavy influence-style, so maybe there are others I could follow.

I play Nirensei occasionally. It's a flexible opening that just jumps right into the middle-game.

Basically, you want to use it if you're confident in your fighting.

That doesn't mean that you forgo territory, but you're not wedded to a territorial game.

Ni ren sei, two star point opening on same side of the board is very common opening, which is oriented towards influence and center. I played it very often with white. I've heard that there's a 9d player on Tygem who plays two 3x3 points with every opening. You might want to try that to learn more about territorial style.

shapenaji wrote:
That doesn't mean that you forgo territory, but you're not wedded to a territorial game.

That is what I mean, you can play basically both styles. I for myself like a 60/40 style of territory and influence, so I am a bit more territory oriented, but not as much.

The problem with nirensei is that you have to play really aggressive and patient because those two hoshi stones stay attackable for a long time, so you can't rely on territory there. Therefore I think many pro's don't play nirensei with black anymore.

The accounts of KGS high dans change a lot, so I'll try to be as recent as possible.

In March 2012, the following KGS high dans played at least 5 games each with nirensei as black. Source: http://www.u-go.net/gamerecords/

mpepe16 45
RoyalCrown 41
Zen19 15
powerpeder 15
AyaMC5 11
banana5d 10
Hedopom 9
idontcare 7
JohF 6
KENEDI 6
grolapin 6
fun66 6
aguilar1 5
Musketeer 5

You can look at the archives and do database searches of your own for older games (if you download the SGFs).

Edit: some of those players aren't themselves high dans but were in there because white is a high dan.

This is the list going down to 3 or more nirensei games if you only include black players 6d KGS and stronger:

mpepe16 45
RoyalCrown 41
powerpeder 15
banana5d 10
idontcare 7
aguilar1 5
cheater 4
JohF 4
gaopo 4
BUM 4
Zen19D 3
axeBOT36 3
flashback 3
suechan 3
macelee 3
RiverSheep 3
okao 3
zyoda 3
dakkon 3
bmw 3
nidza 3

Thx A LOT, snorri. Cool stuff.

The ni-ren-sei is basically an influence-oriented opening at the start, at least. After all, one of the fundamentals is that the 4-4 point is weak for corner territory. However, you can create a territorial aspect to a ni-ren-sei opening for Black by how you treat White's corners. For example:

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$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . 5 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black's low, strong formation in the upper left means that it will be hard for either side to play a totally moyo-oriented game because Black's play there is not consistent with an influence-oriented game and it limits White's possible moyo development. Of course, White did not play for influence with W6 either. You might like the balance to be found in the "orthodox fuseki": http://senseis.xmp.net/?OrthodoxFuseki where Black has territory in one corener and influence-orientation in the other. This opening has been very popular in recent times.

It's not directly related to nirensei specifically, but recently (past decade?) pros have started to use the 4-4 more territorially, making an early shimari rather than big extension. When I started learning Go (only 7 years ago, but there is a lag of pro thinking filtering through to amateurs in the West) it was based on the conventional Japanese theory that dominates the classic English-language Go books (i.e. Ishi press). The standard opening theory is that a 3-4 point makes a shimari first, and then a big extension, whilst a 4-4 makes the big extension first, and then a shimari. However, this seem idea seems to have disappeared in recent pro games (particularly Koreans?) and you see the small knight's shimari from a 4-4 very early these days.

Also another titbit I have picked up is that playing 4-4 points (i.e. nirensei) is far more popular for white these days, whereas black tends to play at least one 3-4 point so he can get more territory to make up for the big komi, compared to white's fast-paced opening with the 4-4s.

@gowan: I like nirensei because 4-4 aims for more than 3-4. If your opponent makes a mistake (and u can get a 4-4 enclosure with good timing) then the territory you get by a corner enclosure with 4-4 is more than with a 3-4 shimari. I don't wanna spoil this option.

@überdude: I agree with your evaluation. Black seems to be unable to use 2x 4-4 stones with the nowadays skills of pro's and white's komi. It's sad to see almost always the same fusekis and I wonder if it's just a fashion or if that's a longterm thing.

I love playing (against) the ni-ren-sei, I feel I am much stronger against this opening than others. Maybe we should make a rule that all of my opponents play ni-ren-sei.

Did anybody see a pro game with nirensei lately? I follow the pro scene via go4go.net and it's like these kind of fusekis died out lately....

Pippen wrote:Did anybody see a pro game with nirensei lately? I follow the pro scene via go4go.net and it's like these kind of fusekis died out lately....

Why the need to study recent pro games with nirensei? You could easily find dozens of Lee Changho games from the 90's which I'm sure are ideal for learning the opening.

I think Uberdude sums it up pretty well.
Nirensei for white is great... not so sure for black according to modern go tendencies.

Looking at the 16 first games of this year's NHK cup, I only found 2 games where black played nirensei:

http://cgi2.nhk.or.jp/goshogi/kifu/igs.cgi?d=20120408 (black win)
http://cgi2.nhk.or.jp/goshogi/kifu/igs.cgi?d=20120701 (white win)

So even the Japanese, who traditionally play more balanced games (than primarily territorial), do not appear to play nirensei as black very often anymore.

Pippen wrote:It's sad to see almost always the same fusekis and I wonder if it's just a fashion or if that's a longterm thing.

It's definitely a long term thing but I don't think it's sad. What we're seeing is a slow, inefficient, but persistent and purposeful search for the kami no itte. It makes sense that most opening lines are suboptimal and should eventually be discarded. A 30k player can play pretty much anywhere in the opening and not see a difference. A 1d player sees only a few possibilities - and most of those would be rejected by a 9d. It makes sense that as level of play improves, more and more possibilities should get discarded until play crystallizes into just a few possible lines.

palapiku wrote:It's definitely a long term thing but I don't think it's sad. What we're seeing is a slow, inefficient, but persistent and purposeful search for the kami no itte. It makes sense that most opening lines are suboptimal and should eventually be discarded. A 30k player can play pretty much anywhere in the opening and not see a difference. A 1d player sees only a few possibilities - and most of those would be rejected by a 9d. It makes sense that as level of play improves, more and more possibilities should get discarded until play crystallizes into just a few possible lines.

I think I disagree with you palapiku. I think it is more a question of style/popularity than it being that research has established that for the first few stones, there is optimal and sub-optimal play. It's not about where you play the first few stones, it's about how you use them afterwards.

For example, the chinese opening was very popular at one point, and then lost its popularity among pros, and now it has resurfaced as the most popular opening.

As research continues to evolve in different directions, and new go prodigies appear, I think (and hope) we will see different fusekis become popular with the changing times.

There is no "optimal" way for an artist to lay his brush on a blank canvas...