This game is almost over. But who won, and by how much? 6.5 komi, Japanese rules.
$$Wcm1 Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X . . X X X | $$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O . X O O O O X | $$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O . O X X . | $$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . | $$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . | $$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . . | $$ | . X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X | $$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O | $$ | . O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | . . O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm1 Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X . . X X X | $$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O . X O O O O X | $$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O . O X X . | $$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . | $$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . | $$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . . | $$ | . X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X | $$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O | $$ | . O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | . . O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Edit: forgot to add, white has 1 more prisoner than black.
Re: counting/endgame problem
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:01 pm
by DJLLAP
I'm not very good at this, but I have white up by 9 or so.
Re: counting/endgame problem
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:34 pm
by jts
My best guess:
Assuming nothing tricksy, I have a 1.5 point game in W's favor. (My counting isn't accurate to within one point anyway, though.) However, I see a need for two repair moves.
Edit: no, never mind on the first one. Black doesn't need to make any repair moves. Capturing the r10 stones is fine. Ignore the first two diagrams.
$$W Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X | $$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O 3 X O O O O X | $$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X 2 | $$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X 4 1 | $$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . | $$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . 9 8 | $$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X 7 6 | $$ | . X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . 5 X | $$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O | $$ | . O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | . . O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X | $$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O 3 X O O O O X | $$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X 2 | $$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X 4 1 | $$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . | $$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . 9 8 | $$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X 7 6 | $$ | . X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . 5 X | $$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O | $$ | . O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | . . O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
One variation:
$$W @ , @ @ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X | $$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O 7 X O O O O X | $$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X 3 | $$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X 2 1 | $$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X 4 | $$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . | $$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . | $$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . 0 | $$ | . X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . 9 X | $$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O | $$ | . O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | . . O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W @ , @ @ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X | $$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O 7 X O O O O X | $$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X 3 | $$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X 2 1 | $$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X 4 | $$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . | $$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . | $$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . 0 | $$ | . X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . 9 X | $$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O | $$ | . O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | . . O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Meanwhile, down in the other corner, B has a 1 pt move.
$$B Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X . . X X X | $$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O . X O O O O X | $$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O . O X X . | $$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . | $$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . | $$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . . | $$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X | $$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O | $$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | 3 . 4 O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | . 1 O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O | $$ | 5 2 O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$B Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X . . X X X | $$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O . X O O O O X | $$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O . O X X . | $$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . | $$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . | $$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . . | $$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X | $$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O | $$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | 3 . 4 O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | . 1 O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O | $$ | 5 2 O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
$$B Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X . . X X X | $$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O . X O O O O X | $$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O . O X X . | $$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . | $$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . | $$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . . | $$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X | $$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O | $$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | . 2 . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | . 1 O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O | $$ | 5 3 O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . | $$ | . 4 O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$B Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X . . X X X | $$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O . X O O O O X | $$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O . O X X . | $$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X X . X X O O O X O X . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O . X O X . | $$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O . X . . . | $$ | X . X O O X X X O X O . O . X . X . . | $$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X | $$ | O X O X X . . X O . O X O X X X O X O | $$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | . 2 . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | . 1 O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O | $$ | 5 3 O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . | $$ | . 4 O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
However, these repair moves cancel out, so it should still be W+1.5 if I counted correctly. So it's actually W+0.5.
Re: counting/endgame problem
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:02 pm
by Jayy
I read W+0.5.
Re: counting/endgame problem
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:39 pm
by Ellyster
I'm not very good at counting yet.
My final count is W+0.5, but my first mental counting was B+0.5 so it seems that I misscounted one white territory at first.
$$B Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | S O S S S S O W B . O S S S S S S S S | $$ | # O # O S O S O X X O S S S O S S S S | $$ | S # O S O O O X X O O O O O X O O O S | $$ | S # O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X T Q X X X O O X X . . X X X | $$ | O X X Q X T Q T T X O O . X O O O O X | $$ | X T X Q T T Q X X X X P O O S O X X T | $$ | T X T X X T Q X O O O O S S # O X T T | $$ | T T X T T T T X X . X X O O O X Q X T | $$ | T T T X X T T T T X T X X O . X Q X T | $$ | T X X O O X T T X X X X O O . X T T T | $$ | X T X O O X X X O X O . O . X T X T T | $$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X T T T X | $$ | O X O X X . . X O S O X O X X X Q X O | $$ | W O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | S S S O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | S S O O X X X X X T X X O O O # O S O | $$ | S S O X X T X T T T X O S O S S O O S | $$ | S S O O X T T T T X O O O S S S S S S | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$B Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | S O S S S S O W B . O S S S S S S S S | $$ | # O # O S O S O X X O S S S O S S S S | $$ | S # O S O O O X X O O O O O X O O O S | $$ | S # O O X X X X O O X X X . X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X T Q X X X O O X X . . X X X | $$ | O X X Q X T Q T T X O O . X O O O O X | $$ | X T X Q T T Q X X X X P O O S O X X T | $$ | T X T X X T Q X O O O O S S # O X T T | $$ | T T X T T T T X X . X X O O O X Q X T | $$ | T T T X X T T T T X T X X O . X Q X T | $$ | T X X O O X T T X X X X O O . X T T T | $$ | X T X O O X X X O X O . O . X T X T T | $$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X T T T X | $$ | O X O X X . . X O S O X O X X X Q X O | $$ | W O O . X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | S S S O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | S S O O X X X X X T X X O O O # O S O | $$ | S S O X X T X T T T X O S O S S O O S | $$ | S S O O X T T T T X O O O S S S S S S | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: counting/endgame problem
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:46 pm
by emeraldemon
@jts
Edit: no, never mind on the first one. Black doesn't need to make any repair moves
Are you sure? What happens when players fill in dame?
@Ellyster
There are 3 small mistakes in your count. What happens when players fill in dame?
Re: counting/endgame problem
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:14 pm
by jts
$$W Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . . . O W W B O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X | $$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O W X O O O O X | $$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X B | $$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X X B X X O O O X O X . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O B X O X . | $$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O W X . . . | $$ | X . X O O X X X O X O B O B X . X . . | $$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X | $$ | O X O X X W B X O . O X O X X X O X O | $$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | . W O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . . . O W W B O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X | $$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O W X O O O O X | $$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X B | $$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X X B X X O O O X O X . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O B X O X . | $$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O W X . . . | $$ | X . X O O X X X O X O B O B X . X . . | $$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X | $$ | O X O X X W B X O . O X O X X X O X O | $$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | . W O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
B just responds to T12 at R9 and he's fine. So yeah, final answer.
Re: counting/endgame problem
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:42 pm
by emeraldemon
@jts
jts wrote:
$$W Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . . . O W W B O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X | $$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O W X O O O O X | $$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X B | $$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X X B X X O O O X O X . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O B X O X . | $$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O W X . . . | $$ | X . X O O X X X O X O B O B X . X . . | $$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X | $$ | O X O X X W B X O . O X O X X X O X O | $$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | . W O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W Black to play, white has 1 more prisoner than black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . . . O W W B O . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O X O . O . O X X O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . X O . O O O X X O O O O O X O O O . | $$ | . X O O X X X X O O X X X W X X X O O | $$ | O O O X X . O X X X O O X X B B X X X | $$ | O X X O X . O . . X O O W X O O O O X | $$ | X . X O . . O X X X X W O O W O X X B | $$ | . X . X X . O X O O O O . . X O X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . X X B X X O O O X O X . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . X . X X O B X O X . | $$ | . X X O O X . . X X X X O O W X . . . | $$ | X . X O O X X X O X O B O B X . X . . | $$ | B X O X O O O X O O O O O O X . . . X | $$ | O X O X X W B X O . O X O X X X O X O | $$ | W O O B X O O O O O X X X X O X X X O | $$ | . . . O X O X O O X X O O X O O X O O | $$ | . W O O X X X X X . X X O O O X O . O | $$ | . . O X X . X . . . X O . O . . O O . | $$ | . . O O X . . . . X O O O . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
B just responds to T12 at R9 and he's fine. So yeah, final answer.
This diagram is correct! but I think you should count it again I thought spotting the aji in the lower left was the tricky part, but apparently it's counting that's difficult.
Re: counting/endgame problem
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:19 pm
by jts
Yeah, well. I never expected to get the count right! I recounted and got B+2.5, and then I recounted a third time and got W+0.5 again.
Re: counting/endgame problem
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:43 am
by hyperpape
I get Black by .5, but only because I saw Jts's point about the lower left.
I *really* need to work on my counting. My estimate wandered from B+2.5 to W+1.5 just because of memory errors or literal counting errors. I counted the upper left as 16 points for awhile.
Re: counting/endgame problem
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:57 am
by emeraldemon
@hyperpape
hyperpape wrote:I get Black by .5, but only because I saw Jts's point about the lower left.
I *really* need to work on my counting. My estimate wandered from B+2.5 to W+1.5 just because of memory errors or literal counting errors. I counted the upper left as 16 points for awhile.
This is correct
Re: counting/endgame problem
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:09 am
by emeraldemon
@jts
Should be B+0.5
Re: counting/endgame problem
Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:24 am
by hyperpape
If you ever want to post more of these, I enjoyed it. You don't necessarily get this kind of feedback when you count in game. I guess what I should do is count all my OGS games late in the endgame.
@ 
, 
@ 
@ 
I thought spotting the aji in the lower left was the tricky part, but apparently it's counting that's difficult.