Life In 19x19

Hello!

Recently I am translating a Go book for beginners. (Korean to English)
Translating itself doesn't seem so difficult, but I found some difficulties in using terms.

1. Can I say 'ataried stones' for indicating stones in atari?
2. Can I use ponnuki as a verb? ex) Ponnuki 5 white stones at the center
3. How should I call the state that black and white both are in atari, and capturing another means not in atari any longer? If I translate the korean term directly, it's something like a) interdependent atari b) related atari c) associated atari
Do you have any specific term for this? Or should I use one of them?

Thanks in advance for your advice, and let me ask you more later!

It is hard to say whether something is definitely right or wrong. If there isn't a commonly-used term, or you can think of a better one than being used, feel free to make it up. A lot of people do.

(1) People have used "ataried stone" or "ataried black stone" in such a way, I'd say it is fine.

(2) Ponnuki as a verb seems weird to me, since you "captured" a stone to create a ponnuki. But, why not?

(3) I think "counter-atari" is most common.

Good luck!

Hey haijin, maybe you could give us the korean-words, sometimes there is already an equivalent and we dont need to create new ones ; )
Also it would be very helpful if you could illustrate what you mean (a picture says more than thousand words!).

You can use the forum-diagram-code to do this like this (click on "show diagram-code")

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Atari
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

P.s.: Welcome to the forums ~ I really really enjoy to read your blog ^_^

hajin wrote:Hello!

Recently I am translating a Go book for beginners. (Korean to English)
Translating itself doesn't seem so difficult, but I found some difficulties in using terms.

1. Can I say 'ataried stones' for indicating stones in atari?

Yes, but it's clumsy. Stones in atari is good.

2. Can I use ponnuki as a verb? ex) Ponnuki 5 white stones at the center

No. Say Capture 5 stones in the center (Note: In the center, on the side.)

3. How should I call the state that black and white both are in atari, and capturing another means not in atari any longer? If I translate the korean term directly, it's something like a) interdependent atari b) related atari c) associated atari

I do not think that there is any set term. I would say mutual atari.

BTW, you can check out go terms at Sensei's Library http://senseis.xmp.net/ . Also see Professor Nam Chihyung's book, Contemporary Go Terms.

1. Yes.
2. No. I'm not even sure what "Ponnuki 5 white stones" means, but in general I would say "make a ponnuki" as the verb.
3. I would like to see a diagram of the situation, but "mutual atari" sounds good to me.

hajin wrote:Hello!

Recently I am translating a Go book for beginners. (Korean to English)
Translating itself doesn't seem so difficult, but I found some difficulties in using terms.

1. Can I say 'ataried stones' for indicating stones in atari?
2. Can I use ponnuki as a verb? ex) Ponnuki 5 white stones at the center
3. How should I call the state that black and white both are in atari, and capturing another means not in atari any longer? If I translate the korean term directly, it's something like a) interdependent atari b) related atari c) associated atari
Do you have any specific term for this? Or should I use one of them?

Thanks in advance for your advice, and let me ask you more later!

I'm trying to write for beginners myself, though in Swedish, and I try to use as few "special" words (like atari) as possible. I believe that the game is confusing enough without all these foreign terms.
So I'd say eg
1. Stones that can be captured next move
2. Capture one stone and thereby create a strong shape
3. Either side can be captured the other and the one that captures saves his own stones at the same time
... or something similar, depending on context.
If I'd use the Go terms, I may use
1. Stones (or group) in atari
2. Create a ponnuki by capturing one stone
no special terms for 3.

/Mats

dfan wrote:2. No. I'm not even sure what "Ponnuki 5 white stones" means, but in general I would say "make a ponnuki" as the verb.

But "make a ponnuki" should mean capturing a single stone to form a diamond shape.

2) Ponnuki as a verb seems weird to me, since you "captured" a stone to create a ponnuki. But, why not?

This is such a pestilential mistake to get rid of. Ponnuki is a verbal noun based on the verb nuku = capture and has exactly the same verb/noun grammar as atari, hane, nobi and so on. Unless you believe that it is a debased form of the Japanese that has now got a life of its own in English, it does NOT signify the resulting shape and doesn't even necessarily refer to the capture of one stone. But by all means say "ponnuki shape" if you mean "the shape after the ponnuki". Remember also that the proverb "ponnuki is worth 30 points" is only valid if you include in the calculation that a stone has actually been captured. The diamond shape without a capture has no special name in Japanese and is obviously worth much less.

Bill Spight wrote:

dfan wrote:2. No. I'm not even sure what "Ponnuki 5 white stones" means, but in general I would say "make a ponnuki" as the verb.

But "make a ponnuki" should mean capturing a single stone to form a diamond shape.

Right, that's why I don't understand what "ponnuki 5 stones" could mean.

John Fairbairn wrote:it does NOT signify the resulting shape and doesn't even necessarily refer to the capture of one stone.

Thanks! This was news for me.
I'm pretty sure that most Swedish Go players use it incorrectly, but whether it has it's own life as a new (Swedish and/or English) word or not, it is good to know that it is wrong...

/Mats

John Fairbairn wrote:This is such a pestilential mistake to get rid of. Ponnuki is a verbal noun based on the verb nuku = capture and has exactly the same verb/noun grammar as atari, hane, nobi and so on.

In a Japanese-German dictionary I found

ポンと抜ける = pon to nukeru

German translation is "Zack! Weg ist es." what may be something like "Bang! It has disappeared." in English.

hajin wrote:1. Can I say 'ataried stones' for indicating stones in atari?
2. Can I use ponnuki as a verb? ex) Ponnuki 5 white stones at the center
3. How should I call the state that black and white both are in atari, and capturing another means not in atari any longer? If I translate the korean term directly, it's something like a) interdependent atari b) related atari c) associated atari
Do you have any specific term for this? Or should I use one of them?

1) I would prefer "stones in atari" or "stones with one liberty"
2) I don't like it. It looks a bit odd in English to me.
3) Someone already has said "Mutual Atari" and that sounds good to me.

A little OT, but I'd say that most Swedish players aren't aware of that dictionary, since it has been unavailable for quite some years. Which BTW is a big pity because it's great stuff.

/Mats

hajin wrote:1. Can I say 'ataried stones' for indicating stones in atari?

You can use the term, and it will be understood, but it is clumsy. In proper English, the '-ed' suffix is added to a verb, making it a past tense verb ( such as converting 'kill' to 'killed' ). It is not appropriate for other parts of speech, such as verbs or adjectives.

( Nonetheless, some English nouns do get used in this manner, such as the noun 'bicycle' being used to generate the past tense verb 'bicycled'. But even the most ignorant English speaker would not attempt to use the noun 'car' to make the past tense verb 'carred'. )

It is difficult to say what part of speech 'Atari' is. It was never properly introduced when it was brought over from Japan. Some treat it as a verb, such as 'to atari a stone'. Some treat it primarily as an adjectival phrase, saying 'in atari' as they would say 'in danger'. Some treat it as a noun, saying 'a ladder is a sequence of ataris'. ( The last two usages are consistent with each other. )

As best I know, 'atari' is a form of the verb 'ataru', and is a noun. But I am no athority on Japanese. If it indeed is a noun, then you should not treat it as a verb, and thus should not add the suffix '-ed' to it.

I recommend the term 'threatened stones'.

hajin wrote:2. Can I use ponnuki as a verb? ex) Ponnuki 5 white stones at the center

No! 'Ponnuki' is a noun in English, and is so beyond dispute. Do not attempt to convert it to a verb. We will have to kill you if you do.

hajin wrote:3. How should I call the state that black and white both are in atari, and capturing another means not in atari any longer? If I translate the korean term directly, it's something like a) interdependent atari b) related atari c) associated atari
Do you have any specific term for this? Or should I use one of them?

a) 'Interdependant' suggests that one being in atari depends on the other being in atari. This is not accurate. One group is in atari because of the presence of the other group, regardless of whether that second group is itself in atari or not.

b) 'Related' is vauge. It is not inaccurate, but is not particularly accurate either.

c) 'Associated' is also vauge.

I'd use the term 'mutual atari'. It is not great, but it is the best that I can think of at the moment.

Most swedish players has probably got their definition from "Japanska Go-termer av P-A Lund".
This source says that ponnuki isn't the shape but the action of killing a single stone with minimal number of stones. You say that it doesn't necessarily refer to the capture of one stone, could you please give some example of this. (P-A Lund gives the corresponding term "kame no ko" when two stones are killed, is this also wrong?)

I won't give it here to avoid stealing my own thunder, but you will see a superb example in 9-dan Showdown, due out any time now. There is a chapter called "The one with the unusual ponnukis".

Lund used GoGoD (with permission) for some of his stuff, but that precise way of describing it is not quite accurate either (the "minimal" bit is misleading). Kame no ko does refer to a specific capture of two stones but this can also be described as "nishi wo ponnuku".

For Casssandra, pon to nuku is possible, but go players usually abbreviate. All the usual derived verb forms are used, e.g. 白に上の二子をﾎﾟﾝ抜かせた - he let White take two stones above, kerpow! Better English, of course, would be something like "he let White gobble up the two stones above."