Life In 19x19

This is a game a played on OGS. I kind of messed up in the upper left corner, losing sente. Tried to use my thickness/influence to invade the bottom ...

It did not work out and I had to resign very early. I felt kind of outplayed/weak/powerless in this game - any advice?

First, you should realize that is mistimed. This position has occurred before in pro games and in all cases Black continued against the top left corner at "a". The exchange of for is one standard exchange in pro games, but it depends on there not being bigger/more urgent plays elsewhere. Here is a missed chance because is played too early. White should jump at the opportunity to play "a" instead.

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[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Consider the position below, where Black continues with the same play at as in the game and then "punishes" White for not answering in the lower left. Can you see where you might be happier not having played an early D2 (i.e. above, below)? Also consider just the situation after is played here. Aren't White's four stones in the upper left better positioned than Black's four stones in the upper right? Remove the exchange of for . Isn't it true as well that White's three stones are better positioned than Black's three?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 . . . . O . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Finally, in the upper left you can say that you lost sente. However, were you aware in the game that you could continue with , below? This makes use of the "corner magic". After Black can not save the stones at the top and still has to finish making two eyes for the group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 4 X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 5 O O . . . O . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . 6 X O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thanks, Dave!

Those two issues are now rather clear.

You weren't powerless. You had power. You just didn't use it as well as you might have.

36: You have power on the left, but you push his stone away from it. Try pushing him toward your wall with H13 or K14.

38: You're playing toothpaste go here. Again, push him toward your strength. Try M16 ( the standard response to a cap - which seems compromised by P17 ) or L15.

41: The toothpaste squirts out. Now you have almost nothing to show for your last three moves.

68: This gets territory if you have B10. But you don't have it AND your invading stones have one eye - in gote! So they are a higher priority.
G10 looks like fun. ( You didn't get much from chasing his G14 and K15 stones except some center influence, so you might as well use it. )
Again, push him toward your strength. Your lower left corner is strong.

Thanks for comments as well, Joaz. Good points.

Well, battousai always mentions how my move is very large to defend the corner. Otherwise black can invade like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . X . . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 8 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 7 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . O 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 X O . . . . . X . . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black is alive in the corner and white still has to get a base for his group.

This is unacceptable for white, he plays differently and gets some influence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 8 . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . 4 . 6 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . X . . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 7 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That's interesting; I haven't seen those variations before. But still, you're missing a move for white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc :wc: has been played
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . Q . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . Q . . 8 . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . 4 . 6 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 O . . . . . X . . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 7 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Perhaps could also have been played at 'a', due to the low stones. If white has that stone high, then this variation looks better for white.

How about this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O . . . . . X . . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The lower left is a valid question. I think White can also simply answer with and below. If Black connects with , White plays again on the top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O . . . . . X . . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If something like this is unsatisfactory, White normally plays the exchange of for below before turning elsewhere. Of course White has to be prepared just in case Black chooses something other than the normal , e.g. the hane at "a" instead, but that's the normal give and take of Go, right?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . a 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

shapenaji, this variation is too creative for me - I only follow known standard patterns.

But - you want to seal black in the corner? The influence seems to radiate more to the right than to the top (battousai's sequence above) and therefore not that usefull, given the two black stones on the F-line?

Let me add one more thought to the first diagram in my last post above. If we look at the result in the bottom left, consider what is left over if we remove the marked stones, 2 White and 2 Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . W . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B O . . . . . X . . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X W . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is just as if the following sequence occurred. Black has fixated on the lower left and played through a typical joseki while White has seized the remaining big points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . X . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ez4u: c4 is a big change though, one of the reasons that white can tenuki the slide is that it's difficult for black to easily get that move in. I think it's a mistake to use tewari analysis in that case, the stones you removed aren't equal.

shapenaji wrote:ez4u: c4 is a big change though, one of the reasons that white can tenuki the slide is that it's difficult for black to easily get that move in. I think it's a mistake to use tewari analysis in that case, the stones you removed aren't equal.

You may well be right (there's no reason to think I understand tewari any more than the rest of Go), but I am not sure that I agree. At the pro level Black does not follow up in the usual joseki by pushing from behind at C4... ever. There is not even one example of such a play in GoGoD, with or without the stone on F5. Black either slides to B5 or approaches White from the back, i.e. the top left. The reason why the play at C4 isn't seen may well be that White would simply ignore it and let Black spend two plays to absorb the D4 stone (in which case my tewari analysis is wrong). I do not know. However, I think the D5 stone has value for White as well. In this case it's value would mainly come from making Black thin around F5. In that case White perhaps should continue with the hane at E2 instead of simply playing out at D9. But in this game my opinion is that White does not actually have to try that hard since Black has tackled the issue of the lower left while there were still bigger areas open on the board.