Life In 19x19

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Another problem from a game

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=6570

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Another problem from a game

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:42 pm
by yoyoma
Another problem from a game.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . X X . . O . .
$$ | . . . X . O . .
$$ | . 1 . . . O . .
$$ | . . X . . O . .
$$ | . . X . O . . .
$$ | . X . O . . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Re: Another problem from a game

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:53 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
It looks alive to me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . X X . . O . .
$$ | 6 . . X . O . .
$$ | 7 1 . 8 . O . .
$$ | 5 2 X . . O . .
$$ | 3 . X . O . . .
$$ | 4 X . O . . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Re: Another problem from a game

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:13 pm
by yoyoma
Joaz Banbeck wrote:It looks alive to me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . X X . . O . .
$$ | 6 . . X . O . .
$$ | 7 1 . 8 . O . .
$$ | 5 2 X . . O . .
$$ | 3 . X . O . . .
$$ | 4 X . O . . . .
$$ | . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
What about :w3: hane at :b4: instead?

Re: Another problem from a game

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:04 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
You mean like this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . X X . . O . .
$$ | . 6 . X . O . .
$$ | . 1 . . . O . .
$$ | . 2 X . . O . .
$$ | 4 . X . O . . .
$$ | 3 X . O . . . .
$$ | 5 O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Re: Another problem from a game

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:15 pm
by cyclops
just a guess
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . , . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . .
$$ | 5 X X . . O .
$$ | 6 . . X . O .
$$ | 9 1 7 8 . O .
$$ | . 2 X , . O .
$$ | 4 . X . O . .
$$ | 3 X . O . . .
$$ | . O O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . .[/go]
edit: so it seems I guessed 6 out of 9 :clap:

Re: Another problem from a game

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:18 pm
by yoyoma
Joaz Banbeck wrote:You mean like this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . X X . . O . .
$$ | . 6 . X . O . .
$$ | . 1 . . . O . .
$$ | . 2 X . . O . .
$$ | 4 . X . O . . .
$$ | 3 X . O . . . .
$$ | 5 O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
.... Keep going. :cool:

Re: Another problem from a game

Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:25 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
yoyoma wrote:..
.... Keep going. :cool:
I've done the essential part. The rest is just judicious application of miai. :D

Re: Another problem from a game

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:24 am
by yoyoma
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
yoyoma wrote:..
.... Keep going. :cool:
I've done the essential part. The rest is just judicious application of miai. :D
You think Black has miai to live? I don't think so. I'll add a few more moves:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . X X . . O . .
$$ | . 6 . X . O . .
$$ | . 1 . . . O . .
$$ | . 2 X . . O . .
$$ | 4 . X . O . . .
$$ | 3 X . O . . . .
$$ | 5 O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm7
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . X X . . O . .
$$ | . X . X . O . .
$$ | 3 O 1 2 . O . .
$$ | . X X . . O . .
$$ | X . X . O . . .
$$ | O X . O . . . .
$$ | O O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Re: Another problem from a game

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:17 am
by yoyoma
No one is posting, I'll add a few more moves. Maybe I'm about to discover something obvious that I hadn't seen before? :-?
yoyoma wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
yoyoma wrote:..
.... Keep going. :cool:
I've done the essential part. The rest is just judicious application of miai. :D
You think Black has miai to live? I don't think so. I'll add a few more moves:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . X X . . O . .
$$ | . 6 . X . O . .
$$ | . 1 . . . O . .
$$ | . 2 X . . O . .
$$ | 4 . X . O . . .
$$ | 3 X . O . . . .
$$ | 5 O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm7 Black tries to make a seki, but White cuts. Black dies.
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | 4 X X . . O . .
$$ | . X . X . O . .
$$ | 3 O 1 2 . O . .
$$ | . X X 7 . O . .
$$ | X 6 X . O . . .
$$ | O X 5 O . . . .
$$ | O O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm7 I think Black must make a ko.
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | . X X . . O . .
$$ | 6 X . X . O . .
$$ | 3 O 1 2 . O . .
$$ | 5 X X . . O . .
$$ | X 7 X . O . . .
$$ | O X 4 O . . . .
$$ | O O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]

Re: Another problem from a game

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:27 am
by illluck
I didn't read this very carefully, but what about this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O O O O . . .
$$ | 0 X X . . O . .
$$ | 9 7 b X . O . .
$$ | 8 1 6 . . O . .
$$ | a 2 X . . O . .
$$ | 4 c X . O . . .
$$ | 3 X . O . . . .
$$ | 5 O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . .[/go]
11 at a, 12 at b, 13 at c, 14 at 8, 15 at 4, 16 at 7.

A few other variations that's more or less similar, black seems to live after 6.

Re: Another problem from a game

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:22 am
by yoyoma
Aha illluck, I didn't see that. But I think White can use a different move order. The problem is getting more and more variations so I'm switching to sgf:

Re: Another problem from a game

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:31 pm
by jts
You have the 5(a)-8(b)-10(b) variation ending in death, but you neglect :b14: at d13, which is ko.

On 5(a)-8(b)-10(c), you have :b12: filling in a shared liberty at A10, but if B takes an external liberty first, W has no move.

On 5(a)-8(a)-12(c), :b20: can fill the ko, and W has no move.

Re: Another problem from a game

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 12:59 pm
by yoyoma
Thanks jts. I fixed the problems you pointed out. To fix the 3rd problem you pointed out, I had to add an extra white stone to the problem (oops!). Any more mistakes? :oops:

Re: Another problem from a game

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:17 pm
by Tommie
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | q X X 2 . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Dear all, in above variation, Black takes of course a liberty with :b3: from the other side
(the one with more libs), then would win the semeai.

i thought however of another sequence, which sprang to mind:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | a X X 6 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 4 7 X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . r X , . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | 9 . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 X p O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | q O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
:b1: attempts to enlarge the eye-space, :w2: = A and :w8: try to do the opposite.
Black is dead after W10 = P., because Q and R are miai.

Note the usefulness of both white :white: ,
does this exact position really come from a game record?

Re: Another problem from a game

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:30 pm
by yoyoma
Hi Tommie thanks for looking. Did you see my latest fix? See any problems?

Here is the real game it came from (I'm black, one of my many alternate names :batman: )
http://eidogo.com/#url:http://files.gok ... Minute.sgf
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