[go]$$B 19x19 board $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . W . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . O O O O . O . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , O . . O . , . X . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
According to Yasui Sanchi under slightly different board position this is better than the capture, though I don't really understand why.
Re: W's best move?
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:18 am
by illluck
DJLLAP wrote:According to Yasui Sanchi under slightly different board position this is better than the capture, though I don't really understand why.
Better influence on the outside. The liberty doesn't matter because white's three stones below has more than enough and the peep isn't worth much for black.
Re: W's best move?
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:22 am
by topazg
$$B 19x19 board $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . | $$ | . X O O W . . . . . . . . . B . . . . | $$ | . . X O C O a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . b . . . b . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . B X . . | $$ | . O O O O . O . . b . . . . . B O . . | $$ | . X X . X . . . . . . b . . . B O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . B O . . | $$ | . . . , O . . O . , . B . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$B 19x19 board $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . | $$ | . X O O W . . . . . . . . . B . . . . | $$ | . . X O C O a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . b . . . b . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . B X . . | $$ | . O O O O . O . . b . . . . . B O . . | $$ | . X X . X . . . . . . b . . . B O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . B O . . | $$ | . . . , O . . O . , . B . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The nobi is nice, I like that - but the reason I wouldn't use the block is because I'm also concerned about the influence the marked Black stones have over the "b" area. Moves like "a" are nice to remove from Black's options IMO The fact it secures White's group too makes it a useful dual purpose move, as well as being thick.
Re: W's best move?
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:28 am
by jts
Spoilers ahead!
This is the Shusaku/Sanchi game, I believe.
$$B 19x19 board $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . a O O O . O . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . X . 7 . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , O . 3 O . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . X O . 1 2 . . O . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . . X . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$B 19x19 board $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . a O O O . O . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . X . 7 . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , O . 3 O . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . X O . 1 2 . . O . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . . X . 5 4 6 . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The commentary says that B strengthens his corner with , etc., because a white stone at A is sente against the left side. But I can't figure out what exactly W can do if B ignores A, or if B defends the corner instead of the side. Thus the question.
Re: W's best move?
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:38 am
by topazg
$$B 19x19 board $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | 3 . X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . O O O O . O . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , O . . O . , . X . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$B 19x19 board $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . X O O 2 4 6 . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O 1 3 5 . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O X O . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . a . a . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . O O O O . O . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , O . . O . , . X . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't understand the concern about E12. Sure, it is a nuisance, but little more for white has the driving tesuji to get out. And if black tries too hard, he is just playing toothpaste go.
So I tend to like Illuck's suggestion of reducing the right side with something around the point marked 'a'.
Re: W's best move?
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:17 pm
by topazg
Joaz Banbeck wrote:
$$B 19x19 board $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . a a . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . O O O O . W . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , O . . W . , . X . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$B 19x19 board $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . X . O . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O X X X . . a a . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . X O O 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X O B O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O B . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O O . . . . , . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . O O O O . W . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . X X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , O . . W . , . X . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . O . . X . X X O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't understand the concern about E12. Sure, it is a nuisance, but little more for white has the driving tesuji to get out. And if black tries too hard, he is just playing toothpaste go.
So I tend to like Illuck's suggestion of reducing the right side with something around the point marked 'a'.
But why would Black play that rather vulgar at all?
It's the aji of the atari on the other side that makes it hard for White to stake anything in the middle, giving a much higher chance it becomes Black's playground later. The fighting over the single stones actually caught in that engagement is petty cash, but Black's built quite a useful center facing thickness where White doesn't have clear equality from his side.
I personally don't think the left side is as urgent as the lower side (one of my many weak hats is on clearly), but if I was to play on the left, I'd rather render the two marked Black stones useless whilst simultaneously guaranteeing my group unconditional cheerfulness. It also means that a Black move around the "a" area doesn't make start to look dangerous, and it means White doesn't have to worry about having two weak groups if the connection between the marked White stones is challened.
A move around there just seems to do a great deal for White's long term bad aji - probably not urgent enough if it wasn't for the fact that it completely settles some important White stones - it just feels thick enough to play.
The fact it secures White's group too makes it a useful dual purpose move, as well as being thick.
, etc., because a white stone at A is sente against the left side. But I can't figure out what exactly W can do if B ignores A, or if B defends the corner instead of the side. Thus the question.
@ 
?