6H against a 2 dan. First game against a dan player!
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:14 pm
by Splatted
I recently played a game against a 2 dan. I felt very outmatched but I can't see why. I've reviewed the game myself, and I can see a lot of places where I was too passive, but I don't think I've found enough to explain the result, or the fact that I never had sente and just let him play as he wanted. I'd really appreciate it if someone could point out the where I missed my chances to attack and if my thoughts are correct.
An additional comment.
Move 18: P7 puts pressure on white's stone, stops it connecting with N5 and stops black from being sealed in.
Edit: Does anyone know what's wrong with the SGF? I can view it on my computer. Are there different SGF formats?
Edit2: I'll try again with a version save in Cgoban.
Edit3: Didn't work.
Edit4: Maybe...
Edit5: Yay! I should have read the instructions more carefully. XD
Re: 6H against a 2 dan. First game against a dan player!
Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:28 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
18 should be something around O7. That stops black from getting sealed in AND attacks Q8. Your handicap stones are high stones. You must use them to split white by extending toward the center. Then white will have a bunch of tiny isolated groups, and you can stomp on them like wine makers in a grape vat.
Move 28: Same issue here. Try N15.
Re: 6H against a 2 dan. First game against a dan player!
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:34 am
by Splatted
Thanks Joaz. That seems like useful advice.
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 4:18 am
by EdLee
Both R8 (inside attach) and P8 (outside attach) are not so good, I think, but is bad -- broken shape for B.
Re: 6H against a 2 dan. First game against a dan player!
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:28 am
by kvasir
is a bad move because - exchange is profit in sente for white. I'm not sure how to explain this and not overstate the problem with . The problem is that is more territory and better shape for white but does not improve black's shape. I think black should have played like this in the game. is hypothetical because white risks black not responding again (but why not keep the territory in good shape).
Re: 6H against a 2 dan. First game against a dan player!
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:18 am
by Shaddy
I don't think 16 is a bad move at all, it restricts white's eyespace. Without 16, white has immediate life and becomes really thick.
Re: 6H against a 2 dan. First game against a dan player!
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:04 pm
by Splatted
Thanks for the replies.
EdLee wrote: is bad -- broken shape for B.
Is descending at S8 the correct shape move here?
kvasir wrote: is a bad move because - exchange is profit in sente for white. The problem is that is more territory and better shape for white but does not improve black's shape. I think black should have played like this in the game.
Thanks, I can definitely see how that would have been a better way to settle my group.
Shaddy wrote:I don't think 16 is a bad move at all, it restricts white's eyespace. Without 16, white has immediate life and becomes really thick.
That's what I was going for with this move, and I think it explains why I did so badly in this area. White's attempt to settle his group gave me a choice between starting a fight or both of us settling our groups, like in Kvasir's diagram. With 16 I started a fight, but then I immediately conceded white's victory by trying to settle my group. I should have chosen one or the other and stuck with it.
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:10 pm
by EdLee
Splatted wrote:
is bad -- broken shape for B.
Is descending at S8 the correct shape move here?
No! It is still broken shape -- when W connects at Q9.
Re: 6H against a 2 dan. First game against a dan player!
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:19 pm
by kvasir
Shaddy wrote:I don't think 16 is a bad move at all, it restricts white's eyespace. Without 16, white has immediate life and becomes really thick.
My understanding of this position is that white has two problems. 1. the cut on M5 and 2. lack of eyespace or 3-3 invasion. I reason that if white fixes the cut he will not miss more eyespace, but if white tries to fix his eyespace the cut can still become severe. Then I conclude that the fight is not about eyespace and bashed 16 because I do not think it helps black's corner that much.
Re: 6H against a 2 dan. First game against a dan player!
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:21 am
by Shaddy
If white becomes alive in the corner, the cut will be useless. In general if your opponent is not yet alive, it's a good idea not to let them have life for free (well, almost- your proposed sequence nets Black ~20 points total, not counting what he had there before.)
Re: 6H against a 2 dan. First game against a dan player!
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:49 am
by Magicwand
Move 6: it was correct response.
Move 18: wrong. should be P7
Move 26: wrong direction. should be K16 or some where around there
Move 28: wrong idea.. should be N15 or tenuki.
Move 32: D14 is good enough at this point. at this point you shoud know that Q12 is big..
Move 34: wrong.. knight move at H15 or G16 looks better
Move 50: you shouldn't be proud.. G12 is better move because you have N14 split attack coming..so thicker you play at G12 will help that split.
Re: 6H against a 2 dan. First game against a dan player!
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:52 pm
by Splatted
@EdLee: Thanks, that makes sense now. I thought you were referring to bad shape in the lower right group.
@Magicwand: Thanks for all the comments. The only one that really surprises me is that move 6 was correct, but I guess the only reason I had thought it was wrong is that I was specifically looking for places moves that were too passive.
Magicwand wrote:Move 50: you shouldn't be proud.. G12 is better move because you have N14 split attack coming..so thicker you play at G12 will help that split.
Ouch... but I see what you're saying. The main reason I liked that move was because I thought it achieved a goal and looked nice, but I guess it just looked nice.
Re: 6H against a 2 dan. First game against a dan player!
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:14 pm
by kvasir
Shaddy wrote:If white becomes alive in the corner, the cut will be useless. In general if your opponent is not yet alive, it's a good idea not to let them have life for free (well, almost- your proposed sequence nets Black ~20 points total, not counting what he had there before.)
It is really not for free. At least I can't see a way for white to make living eyespace in sente. It is ten points here and ten points there for black if white just starts making eyes in gote and this is just the points. I say that the cut can still become severe even if white makes a living group on the side or in the corner and I only mean that white would be leaving this weakness behind. It is not good because black is thick everywhere.
Also justifies . helps white more than helps black. If white does not play the fight will be similar as when exchange is made except this exchange has not been made. is like a forcing move but it is not because it is not sente!
Re: 6H against a 2 dan. First game against a dan player!
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:53 am
by Shaddy
This is hard to argue, because it's just my feeling about the position based on experience. I don't think letting white have this life whenever he wants it is small, and it's worth spending a move in the corner. At the least, if you are going to tenuki, Q8 is a poor place.
Re: 6H against a 2 dan. First game against a dan player!
Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:45 pm
by kvasir
Ok. It is a 6 stone handicap game and this move Q8 was supposed to be an easy way to play that defended the group. R10 is also. Black seemed to want to defend this space in the game when white came in. Maybe N7 is more positive? I don't want to respond to R2 but I think making an overly strong group with real territory is easier than making larger moyo with K16.
Both R8 (inside attach) and P8 (outside attach) are not so good, I think, but 
is bad -- broken shape for B.
is a bad move because 
- 
is hypothetical because white risks black not responding again (but why not keep the territory in good shape).
, only move.
and bashed 16 because I do not think it helps black's corner that much.