[go]$$B $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . , . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Black has been given quite a handicap.
In return, black must pass every second move, effectively giving white two moves in a row every turn.
You are given the choice of color. Would you take black, with all those handicap stones, or white, who gets two moves in a row?
This is a fun exercise -
I think would want white...after a quick look at things, I think black can never touch the edge of the board, because any play on the 2nd line white blocks and extends. Any play on the first line, white can atari and capture next turn. From this alone, I would estimate W can get half the points on the edge, making it about 21 to 25. The question really becomes, can black live in the center?
$$B W12 Marked. $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . X . . . 9 . X . . | $$ | . . X . . 6 5 0 X . . | $$ | . . X . 8 , 2 W X . . | $$ | . . X . . 4 1 . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+
[go]$$B W12 Marked. B13 Marked $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . X . B 6 a . X . . | $$ | . . X W 9 5 8 . X . . | $$ | . . X b 0 1 2 . X . . | $$ | . . X . . 4 . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
After this W can connect at A and B, black can never cut W's shape...of course, even if you make a capturing race here, B needs twice the liberties, so if we say W has 7 libs inside, W gets 14 moves outside...hmm...this might end up being close...I think I still want white though though
Re: Which color would you take?
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:06 am
by Eizero
Black obviously... White can't possibly win unless black is much weaker.
With 3 stones every time for white it should still favor black.
With 4 stones every time for white I'm uncertain.
edit: With 3 stones it looks like white can't live in center if black plays first in the center. With 4 stones it should defiantly favour white.
Re: Which color would you take?
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:56 am
by Tryss
jts wrote:I'd take black... it's impossible for W to make eyes on the edge, right?
I think white can easily live on the corner :
$$B $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X 4 . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . , . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+
[go]$$B $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . , . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . . 5 2 4 6 8 9 . . | $$ | . . . W 0 . . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Maybe I was rash... fools rush in, as they say.
Re: Which color would you take?
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:39 am
by HermanHiddema
Some food for thought:
Any stone Black places on the board that is not directly connected to his existing stones, can be captured by white.
Re: Which color would you take?
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:47 am
by HermanHiddema
Mef wrote:This is a fun exercise -
I think would want white...after a quick look at things, I think black can never touch the edge of the board, because any play on the 2nd line white blocks and extends. Any play on the first line, white can atari and capture next turn. From this alone, I would estimate W can get half the points on the edge, making it about 21 to 25. The question really becomes, can black live in the center?
$$B W12 Marked. $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . X . . . 9 . X . . | $$ | . . X . . 6 5 0 X . . | $$ | . . X . 8 , 2 W X . . | $$ | . . X . . 4 1 . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+
[go]$$B W12 Marked. B13 Marked $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . X . B 6 a . X . . | $$ | . . X W 9 5 8 . X . . | $$ | . . X b 0 1 2 . X . . | $$ | . . X . . 4 . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
After this W can connect at A and B, black can never cut W's shape...of course, even if you make a capturing race here, B needs twice the liberties, so if we say W has 7 libs inside, W gets 14 moves outside...hmm...this might end up being close...I think I still want white though though
In this diagram:
$$B W12 Marked. B13 Marked $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . X . B 6 a . X . . | $$ | . . X W 9 5 8 . X . . | $$ | . . X b 0 1 2 . X . . | $$ | . . X . . 4 . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+
[go]$$B W12 Marked. B13 Marked $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . X . B 6 a . X . . | $$ | . . X W 9 5 8 . X . . | $$ | . . X b 0 1 2 . X . . | $$ | . . X . . 4 . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Why not at ?
Re: Which color would you take?
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:13 pm
by shapenaji
HermanHiddema wrote:
Mef wrote:This is a fun exercise -
I think would want white...after a quick look at things, I think black can never touch the edge of the board, because any play on the 2nd line white blocks and extends. Any play on the first line, white can atari and capture next turn. From this alone, I would estimate W can get half the points on the edge, making it about 21 to 25. The question really becomes, can black live in the center?
$$B W12 Marked. $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . X . . . 9 . X . . | $$ | . . X . . 6 5 0 X . . | $$ | . . X . 8 , 2 W X . . | $$ | . . X . . 4 1 . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+
[go]$$B W12 Marked. B13 Marked $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . X . B 6 a . X . . | $$ | . . X W 9 5 8 . X . . | $$ | . . X b 0 1 2 . X . . | $$ | . . X . . 4 . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
After this W can connect at A and B, black can never cut W's shape...of course, even if you make a capturing race here, B needs twice the liberties, so if we say W has 7 libs inside, W gets 14 moves outside...hmm...this might end up being close...I think I still want white though though
In this diagram:
$$B W12 Marked. B13 Marked $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . X . B 6 a . X . . | $$ | . . X W 9 5 8 . X . . | $$ | . . X b 0 1 2 . X . . | $$ | . . X . . 4 . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+
[go]$$B W12 Marked. B13 Marked $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . X . B 6 a . X . . | $$ | . . X W 9 5 8 . X . . | $$ | . . X b 0 1 2 . X . . | $$ | . . X . . 4 . . X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X X X X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Why not at ?
Simple - because I was trying to quickly read it out off of a text diagram (= Yes your is better, and in fact at this point I'm not entirely convinced that B can live in this game. I have a nagging suspicion he might be able to making a capturing race in the middle right away, but I haven't put a lot of thought into what exact killing shapes white may be able to make.
Re: Which color would you take?
Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:59 am
by mithra
I get W+6 (only a try). W gets the edge as a connected chain and many points. B must hurry to make life in the center, W sacrifices a dozen stones there for semedori as dango.
Re: Which color would you take?
Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:07 am
by mithra
oh, I see now that W can capture even a stone on a 5-5 point, so maybe the semedori strategy is not at all necessary and W can live in the center...
at 
?