Counter-pincer Follow-Up--Attacking While Thin

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dwest
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Counter-pincer Follow-Up--Attacking While Thin

Post by dwest »

This position came up in a game of mine recently and I'm wondering how black can get the best out of the situation. After black counter-pincers at :b5:, white tenukis to take the enclosure in the lower right. It seems like black can play a dual-purpose move at F8 that moves out the C5+F5 stones while attacking :w2:. This, however, leaves two two-space jumps and all sorts of cutting aji. I wonder if black needs to reinforce his position with a play around c or d before attacking the white stone. This, however, removes some corner aji for black. If white elects not to move out at a, but to poke at black's shape with b, how should black handle things after W b, B e, W f? Should :b1: or :b3: be treated more lightly? I'm having a hard time seeing good sequences and things get messy if white starts to cut apart black's stones!

Thanks!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc After :w6: tenuki, where to play?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 4 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . a . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . B . . .
$$ | . . . . b e . . .
$$ | . . . . f . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . 3 . . .
$$ | . . . c d . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . 4 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]
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Alguien
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Re: Counter-pincer Follow-Up--Attacking While Thin

Post by Alguien »

dwest wrote:I'm having a hard time seeing good sequences and things get messy if white starts to cut apart black's stones!
Taking into account I'm about your rank:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc An option
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . 3 O 2 . O . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Another option
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 3 5 . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O 2 4 . 6 . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Last edited by Alguien on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Counter-pincer Follow-Up--Attacking While Thin

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Your move looks fine. White's usual move here is around 'a', 'b', or 'c'. If he doesn't take it, you probably should. ( Remember the proverb: "The opponent's point is my own.")
If you are really worried about the resultant weaknesses, You can always play 'c' yourself. White at 'd' is one of the classic push-through points for white, and black 'c' removes that aji.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . a b . .
$$ | . . . . . c . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . d 3 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . 4 . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -----------------[/go]

EDIT: I disagree with the plan that Alguin's first diagram proposes, for it is aji keshi. It trades aji ( the possibility of attacking white's thin position ) for a solid connection. This, IMHO, is too defensive. Black - because of D15 - has the stronger position here. He should be thinking about attack, not defense.

EDIT2: The more that I think about D15 up there, the more I would be inclined to push white toward it. So, although I like your move at F8, I'd probably be 55%-45% in favor of F7.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Counter-pincer Follow-Up--Attacking While Thin

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Alguien wrote:...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Another option
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 3 5 . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O 2 4 . 6 . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is certainly the right spirit, consistent with black's counter pincer. :rambo:

As I mentioned above, E5 is the point that white can push through, which could lead to this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O O . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Who wins here is beyond me. Without reading deeply, I think that I'd prefer white.
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SoDesuNe
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Re: Counter-pincer Follow-Up--Attacking While Thin

Post by SoDesuNe »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:As I mentioned above, E5 is the point that white can push through, which could lead to this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O O O . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Who wins here is beyond me. Without reading deeply, I think that I'd prefer white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . X X X . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O 2 . O O O . O . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think Black is fine.
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