Life In 19x19

I think I'll take my usual sanrensei, unless he plays a 3-4 instead of two 4-4s. Will see how I feel about it then.

My opponent has chosen an advanced move. So advanced, in fact, that Japanese masters played for centuries without seeing its value as a first move. Then some genius like Go Seigen (or maybe the equivalent of his graduate students ) comes along and tries it an now everyone thinks it's simple. But really, what can one do but despair?

I'll play a move that allows black some choices, just to see what black will try. With this move, black can choose either a parallel or diagonal opening, or even approach .

For DDK:

is the correct direction of play. Kajiwara wrote a curmudgeonly chapter on it in his book by that title, saying something like "White 2 lost the game." The point is that if is the other 3-4 point, black has an approach at now or later and that coordinates too well with black's 1st move on the 4-4 point:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 Bad direction for white.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 , 3 . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't think at my level in the wrong direction would lose the game, but why not get it right?

Interesting. I didn't expect this 3-4. Is he trying to get me to play diagonal fuseki?
This 3-4 seems weird, though. I think there was something about "Move 2 lost the game"? Not sure if this was the exact move, but it does seem in the wrong direction.

For now, I think I'll go on with sanrensei. Not sure if he's read my posts and knows I play it, but I don't think I mind it either way.

By the way, for those at home, feel free to ask questions, since I might not be explaining things at DDK level yet, which is my intention, since that's what dumbrope intended to.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . h a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . g . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b e . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . d c f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ah, Black has decided to make the Nirensei. White has a lot of choices here, and I'll cover some of them. The first thing to think about is what black wants. The answer is: I don't know yet. Black may want to make a sanrensei with 'h' regardless of what white does. Frankly, I don't like playing against the sanrensei, but there is not much to do to really prevent it. But let's talk about what I could do if I wanted to prevent it.


I could play the wedge of 'a' to prevent black's sanrensei.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But I'm not sure of that's kiai or defeatism. Black can take 3 corners this way, so I don't think it's worth it.

More reasonable is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , b . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . a 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here, the idea would be to let black make the sanrensei, but then makes a really good formation for white that white usually doesn't get a chance to make. The problem is that black will usually approach because it's good direction of play for black. It's still playable for white, but I don't like it. White could also play , 'a' or 'b' instead of with the same idea of trying to encourage black to approach rather than making a sanrensei. Now, even if black does that, depending on the joseki that comes out, black could try to play for sente and go back and make a sanrensei.

As for the following, this 3-3 and 3-4 combination is something Sakata played quite a bit. It used to be one of my favorite openings as white, too. The problem is I lost most of my games as I am not Sakata. I really shouldn't let that discourage me. Another reason not to play it that is slightly better is that pros don't really play this so much any more, so it's harder to get new pro games to learn from. Black can play the sanrensei or approach white's 3-4 point. White will probably try to make black work hard to pay komi.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Here's a common idea:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't have a problem playing this way. If black makes a senrensei, I can close the corner at 'a' even play the Chinese opening in a kind of moyo-to-moyo battle. If black approaches instead of playing sanrensei, I would probably pincer.

In the game move, I am just being consistent with territorial style and choose the direction so that black dosen't have expanding approaches from his two star points.

Thought process:
Hmm. I wonder if he opens like this usually, or if he's trying to draw me out of sanrensei.
I feel tempted to leave my two corners as is, and approach one of his.
The way I see it, if I insist in sanrensei, this could happen:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not very sure about . In fact, I might be completely wrong about the rest of the sequence, since it very much depends on his intentions, and if mine change.
I usually feel comfortable playing high moves, in a more moyo type style. When I was younger/weaker, it was because I perceived moyos as potential territory, now it's more due to perceiving them as strength(or as me having the choice of battlefield).
So the line I just showed appeals to me. I'm not sure if he's getting better compensation, however. Solid territory is usually big.

Another move I'm considering is this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , 0 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Again, this has many possible deviations, but I don't like it as much since it seems to leave me in a weaker position.

Possible approaches to 3-4s:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 5-4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not that bad, but I still see a lot of possible deviations that I might not be expecting.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a 5 . . . 7 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not even sure what is the proper response to this approach, or even if it is correct. Maybe 'a'?
He seems to get the better of it.

I think I'll go with sanrensei, which I'm comfortable with, and react to what he plays.

( For beginners. )

Phelan wrote:This 3-4 seems weird, though. I think there was something about "Move 2 lost the game"?
Not sure if this was the exact move, but it does seem in the wrong direction.

No. No problem with .

dumbrope wrote:I don't think at my level in the wrong direction would lose the game

Correct.

Okay now there are some stones on the board. Are there any weak groups? No. Okay, where's the biggest move? Usually, making an enclosure from one of the 3-4 points is the next thing to do after occupying a corner, but there are two of them, so in some sense they can be considered miai. Black probably cares more about developing moyo, so it might go like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now, that's actually playable for white---I'm pretty sure O Meien shows this kind of position in one of his books---but wow, doesn't black look big? Of course, white only has himself to blame by taking two "slow" asymmetrical moves to black's "fast" symmetrical ones. Do I dare? I have another idea, but I'll have to think about it, and that is to approach black first. The idea is to see if black will accept white getting a Kobayashi-style formation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: none
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course, black has other choices besides , like pincering. It's a more open game than the 1st diagram.

It is a tough decision. The approach I described in my previous post is the way I usually play, to try to be active and complicate the opening. I don't get to play much anymore as I have a young child, so really I have to learn the most from each game. By playing as above, I'm stepping out of my comfort zone and setting myself up for a situation where I may have to sabaki (manage weak groups). I will attempt do that and will make terrible, pathetic mistakes as usually I have an attacking style. When I try to make light groups it always looks like nonsense. I would be very grateful if stronger players help me with your comments in these areas, which of course I'll read after the game is complete.

dumbrope wrote:sabaki (manage weak groups)

sabaki does not equal managing weak groups, although managing weak groups could be part of it.

I think I've covered this in my previous post. I don't feel like deviating from my previous plan at this point.

Shouldn't be on the fourth line ideally here or am I missing something?

Boidhre wrote:Shouldn't be on the fourth line ideally here or am I missing something?

Both OK, different meanings, no problem.