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Balanced Attack
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:37 am
by SmoothOper
Is there a concept of Balanced Attack in the Japanese literature?
Re: Balanced Attack
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:32 am
by oren
SmoothOper wrote:Is there a concept of Balanced Attack in the Japanese literature?
You need to define what you mean by balanced attack.
Re: Balanced Attack
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:07 am
by SmoothOper
oren wrote:SmoothOper wrote:Is there a concept of Balanced Attack in the Japanese literature?
You need to define what you mean by balanced attack.
A specific example follows. It suggests a good way to play against the Chinese Fuseki, but also suggests a general approach to the category of Fuseki that depends on building thickness by attacking a weak group, I think of these as "Execution" strategies, sort of analogous to certain styles of sports plays where the opponent tries to use a specific well rehearsed strength to create and exploit a specific weakness. I call the following a balanced attack because its success depends on multiple groups that aren't all that strong, analogous to the sports where it is pretty well understood, that a balanced attack doesn't have isolated weaknesses, and doesn't depend on a singular success, IE no star player or extremely weak player, and there are multiple ways to score. Maybe sabaki or shinogi, though sabaki gets understood as sacrifice, and shinogi gets understood as deft handling.
$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 7 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . 7 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Re: Balanced Attack
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:12 am
by oren
This is a bit of an aside, but what makes you think this is a good way to play against Chinese fuseki? I can find only one example in a database where this was tried at all.
Re: Balanced Attack
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:34 am
by SmoothOper
oren wrote:This is a bit of an aside, but what makes you think this is a good way to play against Chinese fuseki? I can find only one example in a database where this was tried at all.
I have a book that suggests the right side.
Re: Balanced Attack
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:35 am
by oren
SmoothOper wrote:I have a book that suggests the right side.
What book? If this was a reasonable, I would expect to having seen it tried at some point in professional games. The result does not look good for white to me.
Re: Balanced Attack
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:40 am
by SmoothOper
SmoothOper wrote:oren wrote:This is a bit of an aside, but what makes you think this is a good way to play against Chinese fuseki? I can find only one example in a database where this was tried at all.
I have a book that suggests the right side.
Which game was it that tried this?
Re: Balanced Attack
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:42 am
by oren
The only example I've seen of white playing on that side of the Chinese (from a two star formation).
(;GM[1]FF[4]SZ[19]AP[SmartGo:2.8.3.0]
GN[1985-06-03]
PW[Yamada Wakio]WR[2d]
PB[Hashimoto Yujiro]BR[5d]
EV[10th Kisei]RO[Dan Ladder, Game 4]
DT[1985-06-03]
PC[Nihon Ki-in]
KM[5.5]
RE[B+R]
US[GoGoD95];B[pd];W[dp];B[pq];W[dd];B[qk];W[qf];B[qe];W[pf];B[nd];W[qi];B[ok]
;W[oi];B[po];W[jq];B[cn];W[bo];B[cj];W[mq];B[bn];W[co];B[dn];W[fp];B[fc]
;W[lc];B[df];W[cf];B[cc];W[ci];B[ce];W[dj];B[ck];W[cd];B[de];W[be];B[bf]
;W[bc];B[ae];W[bd];B[cg];W[ed];B[ge];W[ff];B[di];W[hc];B[gc];W[ee];B[dh]
;W[hd];B[fe];W[db];B[ef];W[oc];B[od];W[nc];B[pc];W[md];B[he];W[fn];B[jc]
;W[id];B[kd];W[me];B[eb];W[ec];B[da];W[cb];B[ie];W[jd];B[je];W[kc];B[hb]
;W[jb];B[hq];W[fq];B[go];W[fo];B[io];W[ko];B[hm];W[nn];B[om];W[ik];B[jm]
;W[gl];B[lm];W[or];B[oq];W[pr];B[qr];W[nq];B[ps];W[ns];B[rf];W[rg];B[re]
;W[qq];B[qp];W[rq];B[rr];W[nm];B[on];W[oo];B[no];W[op];B[pp];W[np];B[ol]
;W[kk];B[ml];W[mo];B[iq];W[jr];B[mk];W[hh];B[ib];W[ic];B[gd];W[jc];B[ob]
;W[nb];B[pb];W[rk];B[rj];W[qj];B[rl];W[pk];B[ql];W[ri];B[ao];W[ap];B[an]
;W[bp];B[sk];W[fb];B[gb];W[ea];B[gg];W[gh];B[of];W[og];B[nf];W[ke];B[nh]
;W[ph];B[ng];W[pj];B[kf];W[le];B[fj];W[fi];B[fh])
Re: Balanced Attack
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:46 am
by oren
If I modify the search to allow anything on the left side, I get four examples. The only other interesting one I thought was from 2007.
(;GM[1]FF[4]SZ[19]AP[SmartGo:2.8.3.0]
GN[2007-10-27c]
PW[Kimu Sujun]WR[8d]
PB[Komatsu Hideki]BR[9d]
EV[3rd Daiwa Cup]RO[Quarter-final]
DT[2007-10-27]
KM[6.5]
RE[B+1.5]
US[GoGoD95];B[pd];W[dd];B[pq];W[dq];B[qk];W[qf];B[qe];W[pf];B[nd];W[qi];B[oj]
;W[nh];B[oh];W[og];B[ph];W[qh];B[pj];W[nf];B[ld];W[jc];B[mg];W[mf];B[ke]
;W[lg];B[id];W[hc];B[fc];W[hd];B[fe];W[ie];B[df];W[ec];B[ed];W[dc];B[eb]
;W[de];B[ef];W[db];B[gb];W[cf];B[gf];W[hf];B[cg];W[bf];B[jf];W[hh];B[ei]
;W[jh];B[kh];W[kg];B[jg];W[ji];B[lh];W[mh];B[kj];W[lf];B[kb];W[gj];B[mj]
;W[ek];B[ib];W[hb];B[ha];W[jb];B[if];W[gg];B[je];W[he];B[ic];W[ea];B[fb]
;W[bg];B[fg];W[il];B[jp];W[po];B[np];W[no];B[mo];W[qq];B[qr];W[pr];B[pp]
;W[qp];B[or];W[qm];B[oo];W[rr];B[ps];W[pn];B[rf];W[rg];B[re];W[li];B[ki]
;W[lj];B[lk];W[mi];B[ni];W[ng];B[kk];W[mk];B[ml];W[nj];B[nk];W[oi];B[mj]
;W[jd];B[ia];W[mk];B[nl];W[pl];B[ok];W[ho];B[do];W[co];B[cn];W[cp];B[em]
;W[fo];B[gm];W[gl];B[gn];W[ip];B[im];W[jo];B[in];W[jq];B[gi];W[hi];B[fj]
;W[fk];B[hj];W[ij];B[gk];W[hk];B[gj];W[el];B[kp];W[io];B[km];W[ck];B[kq]
;W[jr];B[ep];W[eq];B[hq];W[gq];B[gp];W[fp];B[go];W[hp];B[gr];W[fq];B[hr]
;W[iq];B[kr];W[dm];B[hl];W[hm];B[hn];W[hl];B[fm];W[fl];B[ko];W[fr];B[jn]
;W[ch];B[ci];W[bi];B[cj];W[ej];B[di];W[gh];B[fi];W[fh];B[eh];W[dg];B[eg]
;W[bj];B[dn];W[cm];B[en];W[od];B[oc];W[bn];B[rs];W[sr];B[pi];W[oe];B[pc]
;W[md];B[mc];W[rl];B[rk];W[nn];B[on];W[om];B[op];W[nm];B[pg];W[qg];B[bm]
;W[bo];B[me];W[rj];B[sk];W[qj];B[pk];W[sg];B[js];W[jl];B[sj];W[si];B[jj]
;W[fs];B[ri];W[rh];B[ii];W[ih];B[hg];W[ig];B[ge];W[ik];B[gd];W[ii];B[ee]
;W[sl];B[mj];W[ni];B[ql];W[rn];B[gc];W[hg];B[fa];W[da];B[dh];W[hs];B[cg]
;W[bh];B[le];W[sf];B[se];W[mm];B[lm];W[mn];B[ln];W[gs];B[ir];W[kl];B[ll]
;W[dj];B[dg];W[mk];B[pe];W[ne];B[mj];W[dp];B[eo];W[mk];B[ol];W[pm];B[mj]
;W[mp];B[lo];W[mk];B[dl];W[cl];B[mj];W[nc];B[nb];W[mk];B[bk];W[bl];B[mj]
;W[nq];B[mq];W[rq];B[mk])
Re: Balanced Attack
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:57 am
by SmoothOper
Both of those seem to have a single group.
The right part of the example I gave is from Cho Chikun vs. O Rissei, though I am not sure the diagram wasn't edited as a variation.
Re: Balanced Attack
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:36 pm
by oren
Maybe this which is a significantly different position.
(;GM[1]FF[4]SZ[19]AP[SmartGo:2.8.3.0]
GN[1987-04-16d]
PW[O Rissei]WR[9d]
PB[Cho Chikun]BR[9d]
EV[42nd Honinbo League]
DT[1987-04-16]
PC[Nihon Ki-in]
KM[5.5]
RE[W+1.5]
US[GoGoD95]
TM[6h];B[pd];W[cq];B[pq];W[dc];B[qk];W[jp];B[ce];W[dh];B[df];W[fd];B[bc]
;W[jc];B[dn];W[fp];B[dk];W[ff];B[lp];W[qf];B[qe];W[pf];B[nc];W[pn];B[qo]
;W[qn];B[po];W[nm];B[qh];W[oo];B[op];W[no];B[mq];W[pj];B[rn];W[rm];B[ro]
;W[qj];B[rf];W[rg];B[re];W[dl];B[cp];W[dp];B[co];W[el];B[bq];W[dq];B[cl]
;W[ck];B[cm];W[cj];B[br];W[dg];B[ef];W[eg];B[cc];W[md];B[nd];W[mf];B[jk]
;W[dd];B[cg];W[ch];B[bg];W[ji];B[gk];W[hk];B[fg];W[fh];B[fe];W[gf];B[me]
;W[le];B[ne];W[lf];B[gm];W[gj];B[kc];W[kd];B[lc];W[jb];B[qm];W[pm];B[ql]
;W[ph];B[iq];W[jq];B[ip];W[io];B[hl];W[jn];B[hj];W[ik];B[ho];W[hp];B[hn]
;W[il];B[fj];W[gi];B[in];W[jo];B[gp];W[hq];B[gq];W[ir];B[gr];W[fk];B[gl]
;W[lo];B[rh];W[qg];B[oh];W[pg];B[ol];W[rk];B[nf];W[ng];B[rl];W[pl];B[og]
;W[of];B[oi];W[pi];B[ge];W[ee];B[mg];W[nh];B[oj];W[nk];B[lg];W[mi];B[jd]
;W[je];B[id];W[ie];B[hf];W[gg];B[ld];W[he];B[ke];W[kf];B[hc];W[de];B[cf]
;W[gc];B[hd];W[gd];B[gb];W[fb];B[hb];W[kd];B[kb];W[fn];B[fo];W[fm];B[go]
;W[fl];B[kr];W[eo];B[en];W[er];B[cr];W[pk];B[sm];W[im];B[do];W[bh];B[cd]
;W[cb];B[bb];W[db];B[ba];W[kq];B[lq];W[sf];B[se];W[sg];B[rj];W[ri];B[sk]
;W[jr];B[ks];W[gs];B[fs];W[hs];B[fr];W[hr];B[gn];W[np];B[nq];W[bl];B[bm]
;W[bk];B[ko];W[mp];B[kp];W[kn];B[ke];W[lr];B[mr];W[kd];B[ln];W[mo];B[ke]
;W[js];B[ls];W[kd];B[ej];W[dj];B[ke];W[pe];B[od];W[kd];B[al];W[ak];B[am]
;W[fa];B[ke];W[ep];B[dr];W[kd];B[dm];W[ek];B[ke];W[qd];B[rd];W[kd];B[ja]
;W[si];B[ah];W[ai];B[ag];W[sj];B[rk];W[ca];B[ke];W[qc];B[rc];W[kd];B[on]
;W[nn];B[ke];W[qb];B[rb];W[kd];B[bi];W[aj];B[ke];W[ra];B[pb];W[kd];B[em]
;W[dk];B[ke];W[oq];B[or];W[kd];B[di];W[ci];B[ke];W[pp];B[kd];W[oq];B[jf]
;W[kg];B[op];W[ga];B[ha];W[oq];B[ge];W[fe];B[op];W[oe];B[qp])
Re: Balanced Attack
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:10 pm
by SmoothOper
oren wrote:Maybe this which is a significantly different position.
(;GM[1]FF[4]SZ[19]AP[SmartGo:2.8.3.0]
GN[1987-04-16d]
PW[O Rissei]WR[9d]
PB[Cho Chikun]BR[9d]
EV[42nd Honinbo League]
DT[1987-04-16]
PC[Nihon Ki-in]
KM[5.5]
RE[W+1.5]
US[GoGoD95]
TM[6h];B[pd];W[cq];B[pq];W[dc];B[qk];W[jp];B[ce];W[dh];B[df];W[fd];B[bc]
;W[jc];B[dn];W[fp];B[dk];W[ff];B[lp];W[qf];B[qe];W[pf];B[nc];W[pn];B[qo]
;W[qn];B[po];W[nm];B[qh];W[oo];B[op];W[no];B[mq];W[pj];B[rn];W[rm];B[ro]
;W[qj];B[rf];W[rg];B[re];W[dl];B[cp];W[dp];B[co];W[el];B[bq];W[dq];B[cl]
;W[ck];B[cm];W[cj];B[br];W[dg];B[ef];W[eg];B[cc];W[md];B[nd];W[mf];B[jk]
;W[dd];B[cg];W[ch];B[bg];W[ji];B[gk];W[hk];B[fg];W[fh];B[fe];W[gf];B[me]
;W[le];B[ne];W[lf];B[gm];W[gj];B[kc];W[kd];B[lc];W[jb];B[qm];W[pm];B[ql]
;W[ph];B[iq];W[jq];B[ip];W[io];B[hl];W[jn];B[hj];W[ik];B[ho];W[hp];B[hn]
;W[il];B[fj];W[gi];B[in];W[jo];B[gp];W[hq];B[gq];W[ir];B[gr];W[fk];B[gl]
;W[lo];B[rh];W[qg];B[oh];W[pg];B[ol];W[rk];B[nf];W[ng];B[rl];W[pl];B[og]
;W[of];B[oi];W[pi];B[ge];W[ee];B[mg];W[nh];B[oj];W[nk];B[lg];W[mi];B[jd]
;W[je];B[id];W[ie];B[hf];W[gg];B[ld];W[he];B[ke];W[kf];B[hc];W[de];B[cf]
;W[gc];B[hd];W[gd];B[gb];W[fb];B[hb];W[kd];B[kb];W[fn];B[fo];W[fm];B[go]
;W[fl];B[kr];W[eo];B[en];W[er];B[cr];W[pk];B[sm];W[im];B[do];W[bh];B[cd]
;W[cb];B[bb];W[db];B[ba];W[kq];B[lq];W[sf];B[se];W[sg];B[rj];W[ri];B[sk]
;W[jr];B[ks];W[gs];B[fs];W[hs];B[fr];W[hr];B[gn];W[np];B[nq];W[bl];B[bm]
;W[bk];B[ko];W[mp];B[kp];W[kn];B[ke];W[lr];B[mr];W[kd];B[ln];W[mo];B[ke]
;W[js];B[ls];W[kd];B[ej];W[dj];B[ke];W[pe];B[od];W[kd];B[al];W[ak];B[am]
;W[fa];B[ke];W[ep];B[dr];W[kd];B[dm];W[ek];B[ke];W[qd];B[rd];W[kd];B[ja]
;W[si];B[ah];W[ai];B[ag];W[sj];B[rk];W[ca];B[ke];W[qc];B[rc];W[kd];B[on]
;W[nn];B[ke];W[qb];B[rb];W[kd];B[bi];W[aj];B[ke];W[ra];B[pb];W[kd];B[em]
;W[dk];B[ke];W[oq];B[or];W[kd];B[di];W[ci];B[ke];W[pp];B[kd];W[oq];B[jf]
;W[kg];B[op];W[ga];B[ha];W[oq];B[ge];W[fe];B[op];W[oe];B[qp])
Thank you. I didn't want to post too much copyrighted information from the book, and that helps seeing how it actually played out. White actually lost his sansan corner, but the capture of the R9-R12 group compensated.
Re: Balanced Attack
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:00 pm
by Mef
SmoothOper wrote:Is there a concept of Balanced Attack in the Japanese literature?
As a bit of an aside...from what I have gathered from conversations with people who have access to Japanese go literature, given the sheer quantity of material in general, the answer to "Is there a... ...in Japanese go literature" is almost invariably yes (=
Re: Balanced Attack
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:27 pm
by lobotommy
For god's sake! SmoothOper - Stop thinking on theory level! Go is not a philosophy! (and I really know what I'm saying because I have a philosophy master degree).
Jesus Christ... Give me a strength... You just created another topic about theory that does not exist, because all you are asking for depends on experience, which means practice, which means a lot of reading and positional judgment.
Re: Balanced Attack
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:35 pm
by SmoothOper
lobotommy wrote:For god's sake! SmoothOper - Stop thinking on theory level! Go is not a philosophy! (and I really know what I'm saying because I have a philosophy master degree).
Jesus Christ... Give me a strength... You just created another topic about theory that does not exist, because all you are asking for depends on experience, which means practice, which means a lot of reading and positional judgment.
Forgive me, if I treat your post as hostile, but yes or no, does your masters degree in philosohpy(Which by the way isn't even a PhD) make you any kind of authority on anything but reading logical drivel written by the true masters of thought or the Chinese Fuseki for that matter?