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What is your favorite rivalry?
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:57 pm
by Twitchy Go
I've mentioned over in my little corner of L19x19 that I want to study some progames. More specifically multiple games played between the same two players,i.e.,rivals.
Being a very new player to go, having started a little over a year ago now, I don't really know the pro scene that well. So I turn to ya'll, what do you think are some of the cooler match ups out there, and why? These can be golden oldies like Cho Chikun and Kobayashi Koichi, or more recent stars such as Gu Li and Lee Sedol.
As an aside I searched the forum with the keyword rivalry and have already pulled these match ups together.
Go Seigen-Kianti Minouru
Gu Li- Lee Sedol
Kobayashi Koichi-Takemiya Masaki
Kobayashi Koichi-Cho Chikun
Cho Chikun-Takemiya Maaki
Lee Changho-Cho Hun-hyeon
So in closing the goal of this thread is two fold.
1)Get some recommendations of pro match ups to review.
2)Let everyone know who you think has the most rocking rivalry!
I look forward to every ones thoughts.
Regards,
-TwitchyGo
Re: What is your favorite rivalry?
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:16 pm
by lemmata
Re: What is your favorite rivalry?
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:56 pm
by hailthorn011
I'm not sure if it's a rivalry, but Iyama Yuta VS Yamashita Keigo was the first one that came to mind.
(;
KM[6.5]
EV[67th Honinbo title match 2]
FF[3]
SZ[19]
GM[1]
PW[Iyama Yuta]
WR[Tengen]
DT[2012-05-28,29]
BR[Meijin]
RE[W+5.5]
PB[Yamashita Keigo]
;B[pd];W[dd];B[pq];W[cp];B[eq];W[qo];B[pl];W[lp];B[np];W[iq];B[io]
;W[qq];B[qr];W[pp];B[oq];W[om];B[kq];W[lq];B[jq];W[rq];B[ko];W[lo]
;B[nn];W[kn];B[jo];W[oo];B[no];W[lm];B[mn];W[ln];B[nl];W[kp];B[jp]
;W[ep];B[fp];W[fq];B[dp];W[eo];B[dq];W[do];B[cq];W[bq];B[fr];W[gq]
;B[gr];W[hq];B[co];W[bp];B[br];W[fo];B[cn];W[dm];B[im];W[cr];B[cs]
;W[ar];B[bs];W[cm];B[bo];W[dn];B[ao];W[ik];B[on];W[lk];B[gk];W[gj]
;B[gn];W[go];B[fj];W[hj];B[jl];W[kj];B[fl];W[fi];B[ej];W[ei];B[dj]
;W[gm];B[fm];W[hn];B[hl];W[bl];B[di];W[bn];B[an];W[am];B[bm];W[dr]
;B[er];W[bn];B[jk];W[ap];B[jj];W[ji];B[ii];W[ij];B[ki];W[jh];B[lj]
;W[kk];B[mj];W[il];B[jm];W[hm];B[jr];W[eg];B[dh];W[cf];B[eh];W[fh]
;B[cg];W[df];B[bf];W[be];B[fg];W[ih];B[ce];W[gg];B[bd];W[mk];B[nj]
;W[nk];B[oj];W[ok];B[pj];W[pk];B[qk];W[qj];B[qi];W[rj];B[ri];W[lr]
;B[hr];W[ql];B[rk];W[rl];B[sj];W[ol];B[pn];W[pm];B[qn];W[rn];B[rr]
;W[ff];B[oc];W[kc];B[kd];W[jc];B[lc];W[lb];B[mc];W[jd];B[po];W[so]
;B[ke];W[pb];B[mb];W[qc];B[rd];W[qd];B[re];W[qe];B[qf];W[rf];B[rg]
;W[ob];B[nb];W[nd];B[ne];W[pf];B[qg];W[me];B[od];W[nf];B[oe];W[lf]
;B[md];W[rc];B[oa];W[of];B[kf];W[kg];B[kb];W[jb];B[la];W[lg];B[pe]
;W[cd];B[ae];W[bc];B[bb];W[cc];B[ac];W[de];B[bh];W[be];B[ad];W[ja]
;B[ka];W[cb];B[if];W[bj];B[bi];W[cj];B[fn];W[ho];B[ci];W[nr];B[or]
;W[ie];B[je];W[he];B[hf];W[gf];B[ml];W[ll];B[op];W[qp];B[lh];W[ba]
;B[ab];W[ir];B[is];W[sr];B[ns];W[ms];B[os];W[oh];B[sl];W[sm];B[qm]
;W[rm];B[ck];W[bk];B[nh];W[kh];B[li];W[ph];B[mg];W[mf];B[dl];W[gl]
;B[ng];W[qh];B[rh];W[oi];B[ni];W[hk];B[fk];W[ai];B[ah];W[aj];B[hp]
;W[gp];B[ip];W[ce];B[em];W[cl];B[dk];W[hg];B[jf];W[rs];B[qs];W[ig]
;B[sk];W[sq];B[hs];W[ss])
(;
KM[6.5]
EV[67th Honinbo title match 7]
FF[3]
SZ[19]
GM[1]
PW[Iyama Yuta]
WR[Tengen]
DT[2012-07-18]
BR[Honinbo]
RE[W+7.5]
PB[Yamashita Keigo]
;B[pd];W[dd];B[pq];W[dp];B[qk];W[fq];B[dj];W[nc];B[pf];W[qc];B[pc]
;W[pb];B[ob];W[qb];B[oc];W[re];B[rf];W[qe];B[qf];W[nb];B[oa];W[qd]
;B[nf];W[jd];B[fc];W[ec];B[fd];W[df];B[hc];W[ic];B[ie];W[je];B[jf]
;W[kf];B[id];W[jc];B[kg];W[if];B[jg];W[hb];B[eb];W[hd];B[cc];W[he]
;B[op];W[cl];B[ce];W[cd];B[bd];W[be];B[bf];W[bc];B[ae];W[de];B[dc]
;W[cb];B[db];W[ab];B[cg];W[dg];B[ch];W[cf];B[be];W[ba];B[ff];W[dh]
;B[ci];W[gg];B[ac];W[ad];B[fg];W[fh];B[ac];W[pe];B[fi];W[gh];B[eh]
;W[ei];B[eg];W[of];B[og];W[oe];B[ej];W[qp];B[qq];W[pm];B[nm];W[pk]
;B[pj];W[ql];B[ok];W[ol];B[pl];W[fe];B[di];W[pk];B[cp];W[oj];B[pl]
;W[bg];B[pk];W[ad];B[dq];W[af];B[ep];W[ge];B[do];W[jp];B[hq];W[hp]
;B[gp];W[ho];B[iq];W[jq];B[gq];W[jm];B[ip];W[jo];B[io];W[in];B[kn]
;W[jn];B[gm];W[rq];B[qn];W[qm];B[qo];W[on];B[nn];W[rp];B[oo];W[po]
;B[pn];W[om];B[rn];W[nl];B[pp];W[ll];B[ml];W[mk];B[mm];W[nk];B[lk]
;W[pi];B[rk];W[lm];B[mo];W[jj];B[jk];W[kk];B[lj];W[li];B[kj];W[ki]
;B[kl];W[mj];B[kk];W[ik];B[ij];W[ji];B[km];W[hk];B[oi];W[oh];B[ni]
;W[nh];B[ph];W[mi];B[ng];W[nj];B[qi];W[gj];B[fk];W[aj];B[bj];W[lg]
;B[lf];W[mf];B[le];W[mg];B[ne];W[nd];B[me];W[ke];B[hm];W[il];B[hn]
;W[mr];B[ld];W[ai];B[ak];W[bh];B[bi];W[ah];B[bk];W[lc];B[mq];W[oi]
;B[rh];W[nr];B[lr];W[kr];B[lq];W[ls];B[or];W[nq];B[gi];W[hi];B[gf]
;W[hf];B[np];W[lp];B[mp];W[rl];B[ir];W[sn];B[sm];W[sl];B[rm];W[rj]
;B[qj];W[sk];B[ri];W[sj];B[qg];W[lo];B[ln];W[gl];B[fl];W[sf];B[sg]
;W[se];B[jr];W[kq];B[ko];W[kp];B[js];W[ks];B[gk];W[si];B[sh];W[ef]
;B[ei];W[hl];B[md];W[mc];B[kd];W[kc];B[pg];W[hj];B[fj];W[ms];B[oq]
;W[hh];B[os])
(;
PW[Iyama Yuta]
EV[36th Meijin title match 1]
KM[6.5]
FF[3]
SZ[19]
GM[1]
WR[Meijin]
PB[Yamashita Keigo]
BR[Honinbo]
RE[B+5.5]
DT[2011-09-01,02]
;B[qd];W[dd];B[pp];W[dp];B[fc];W[cf];B[od];W[qk];B[qi];W[qn];B[qo]
;W[pn];B[np];W[oj];B[nn];W[ph];B[qh];W[ol];B[fq];W[cn];B[db];W[hq]
;B[go];W[jp];B[do];W[co];B[dq];W[ep];B[eq];W[cq];B[fp];W[eo];B[cr]
;W[bq];B[lq];W[kq];B[lp];W[jn];B[io];W[jo];B[hm];W[jl];B[hk];W[ij]
;B[qj];W[gi];B[fk];W[pc];B[oc];W[pf];B[rk];W[ql];B[qe];W[qf];B[oi]
;W[oe];B[nj];W[pd];B[pe];W[ob];B[qc];W[pb];B[mc];W[md];B[nc];W[qb]
;B[ne];W[of];B[rf];W[rc];B[re];W[ld];B[lc];W[kd];B[nd];W[gc];B[gd]
;W[hc];B[fd];W[mg];B[jc];W[jd];B[ic];W[hd];B[id];W[he];B[ie];W[if]
;B[jf];W[hf];B[lf];W[cc];B[ok];W[ml];B[km];W[im];B[lk];W[hl];B[gl]
;W[hn];B[il];W[gm];B[fm];W[hl];B[ik];W[gn];B[jm];W[in];B[gr];W[hr]
;B[br];W[ar];B[er];W[nk];B[pj];W[oo];B[op];W[mj];B[mk];W[jk];B[jj]
;W[kj];B[ji];W[ll];B[nl];W[nm];B[hj];W[nk];B[ih];W[jg];B[kg];W[kk]
;B[nl];W[je];B[kf];W[nk];B[gg];W[hh];B[hg];W[ig];B[kh];W[fg];B[nl]
;W[jh];B[ii];W[ki];B[hi];W[gf];B[nk];W[ln];B[li];W[lm];B[dj];W[el]
;B[cl];W[dl];B[dk];W[ci];B[di];W[ch];B[dm];W[gj];B[gk];W[em];B[cm]
;W[dn];B[gh];W[fh];B[bj];W[hh];B[fj];W[hb];B[jb];W[no];B[nb];W[qq]
;B[ro];W[or];B[nr];W[mr];B[pr];W[oa];B[lr];W[ns];B[pq];W[is];B[gs]
;W[ls];B[kr];W[ks];B[jr];W[js];B[ip];W[iq];B[gp];W[jq];B[om];W[mo]
;B[nq];W[rl];B[fn];W[en];B[rn];W[ps];B[qr];W[rj];B[ra];W[qa];B[pl]
;W[rm];B[ri];W[sj];B[na];W[rb];B[dh];W[dg];B[ah];W[bn];B[lj];W[kl]
;B[bg];W[cg];B[bl];W[rg];B[si];W[sk];B[sg];W[qs];B[rs];W[os];B[rq]
;W[ai];B[bi];W[bh];B[aj];W[bf];B[fi];W[gh];B[ag];W[af];B[ai];W[pm]
;B[on];W[mn];B[ol];W[po];B[eh];W[cj];B[ck];W[ib];B[kc];W[ja];B[ka]
;W[ia];B[eg];W[ef];B[am];W[an];B[sm];W[bm];B[al];W[ek];B[ej];W[lo]
;B[kp];W[ko];B[bs];W[rd];B[sf];W[sd];B[mm];W[hm];B[nm])
(;
EV[36th Meijin title match 4]
KM[6.5]
FF[3]
SZ[19]
GM[1]
PW[Yamashita Keigo]
WR[Honinbo]
DT[2011-10-05,06]
BR[Meijin]
RE[W+R]
PB[Iyama Yuta]
;B[pd];W[dp];B[pq];W[dd];B[pk];W[fq];B[fc];W[cf];B[mc];W[id];B[mp]
;W[qf];B[fe];W[gd];B[fd];W[db];B[hf];W[je];B[jg];W[le];B[dg];W[df]
;B[eg];W[ef];B[ff];W[fg];B[fh];W[gg];B[hh];W[eh];B[gh];W[dh];B[hg]
;W[cg];B[pf];W[ne];B[nd];W[kg];B[kh];W[lh];B[kf];W[lg];B[jf];W[pg]
;B[nf];W[oe];B[pe];W[of];B[og];W[me];B[oh];W[od];B[pc];W[oc];B[ob]
;W[nb];B[pb];W[mb];B[jc];W[ic];B[lc];W[kc];B[li];W[mi];B[ki];W[qh]
;B[qj];W[rd];B[rc];W[mh];B[ph];W[qg];B[kd];W[ke];B[nc];W[kb];B[lb]
;W[ld];B[jb];W[ka];B[la];W[jd];B[ja];W[kd];B[na];W[oj];B[qi];W[lj]
;B[kj];W[kk];B[jk];W[lk];B[ok];W[nj];B[pi];W[jl];B[ik];W[il];B[hk]
;W[qo];B[qp];W[oo];B[np];W[qm];B[om];W[rk];B[rl];W[ql];B[qk];W[on]
;B[bp];W[cp];B[bo];W[bq];B[cl];W[hl];B[gl];W[cn];B[bn];W[gk];B[fk]
;W[gj];B[fj];W[cm];B[bm];W[bk];B[ck];W[bj];B[co];W[do];B[br];W[cq]
;B[fm];W[jj];B[hj];W[jh];B[rj];W[rm];B[sk];W[rp];B[rq];W[pp];B[qq]
;W[op];B[oq];W[jq];B[gq];W[gp];B[iq];W[ip];B[hq];W[hp];B[jr];W[kq]
;B[kr];W[lq];B[fr];W[er];B[ln];W[lo];B[ko];W[lp];B[mo];W[so];B[jp]
;W[gm];B[fl];W[lr];B[mr];W[ks];B[ir];W[jo];B[eq];W[dr];B[fp];W[en]
;B[dm];W[dn];B[bl];W[fn];B[mq];W[kn];B[js];W[ls];B[hs];W[ms];B[jn]
;W[kp];B[km];W[in];B[ko];W[nr];B[or];W[kn];B[cj];W[ci];B[ko];W[mn]
)
Re: What is your favorite rivalry?
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:31 pm
by macelee
My opinion is that to qualify to be 'rivalry', the two players should be playing a lot of games against each other and the results should not be very one-sided.
A good example: Gu Li (16 win 1 draw 16 loss) vs. Lee Sedol
These pairs can be found on Go4Go. Go to
http://www.go4go.net and click
Search by Players from menu, then click
Most Active Players, choose a top player on the list and click
By Opponents. Lots of interesting statistics there.
Re: What is your favorite rivalry?
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:18 pm
by Twitchy Go
I like An Younggils commentary, thanks for taking the time to pull the links lemmata.
And hailthorn, even if it's not a rivalry per se. There has to be a lot to learn from games between two title holders, thanks for sharing those exciting games.
And a big thanks to you macelee. I did not know about go4go, and that search method finds me exactly what I want.
Another fun statistic: Lee Changho vs Lee Sedol. 31 wins each
But please everyone, feel free to keep sharing. I know I plan on posting awesome pro games. Although I'll probably put it in my study journal
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5828 instead of here. After all why else would I have a journal if not to put cool things in it
P.S. I'll limit it to super-awesome-mega-cool games, as I usually am excited about most anything played at a high level
Re: What is your favorite rivalry?
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:07 am
by SmoothOper
Twitchy Go wrote:I've mentioned over in my little corner of L19x19 that I want to study some progames. More specifically multiple games played between the same two players,i.e.,rivals.
Being a very new player to go, having started a little over a year ago now, I don't really know the pro scene that well. So I turn to ya'll, what do you think are some of the cooler match ups out there, and why? These can be golden oldies like Cho Chikun and Kobayashi Koichi, or more recent stars such as Gu Li and Lee Sedol.
As an aside I searched the forum with the keyword rivalry and have already pulled these match ups together.
Go Seigen-Kianti Minouru
Gu Li- Lee Sedol
Kobayashi Koichi-Takemiya Masaki
Kobayashi Koichi-Cho Chikun
Cho Chikun-Takemiya Maaki
Lee Changho-Cho Hun-hyeon
So in closing the goal of this thread is two fold.
1)Get some recommendations of pro match ups to review.
2)Let everyone know who you think has the most rocking rivalry!
I look forward to every ones thoughts.
Regards,
-TwitchyGo
Interesing thread. I don't think Cho Chikun and Takemiya were really all that intense rivals or Takemiya and Kobayashi either, mostly Takemiya was just too likeable, and didn't have the greediness that Cho Chikun and Kobayashi Koichi had. That being said they did have some epic games.
Re: What is your favorite rivalry?
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:06 am
by BaghwanB
I've always had a soft spot for Yamashita Keigo v. Hane Naoki. Maybe it was just the point in my personal go career when I started paying attention to current pro games, but some of their bouts just seem like a fascinating level of play.
In some Keigo seems to scatter stones across the board and then pull them all together in the nick of time. When it works, it looks like magic. When it fails, he falls on his face given his opponent's level here.
Bruce "Fanboy" Young
Re: What is your favorite rivalry?
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:15 am
by macelee
SmoothOper wrote:Interesing thread. I don't think Cho Chikun and Takemiya were really all that intense rivals or Takemiya and Kobayashi either, mostly Takemiya was just too likeable, and didn't have the greediness that Cho Chikun and Kobayashi Koichi had. That being said they did have some epic games.
I read that Takemiya and Kobayashi did not get along very well in real life. So in that sense they are rivals.
Re: What is your favorite rivalry?
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:07 am
by Monadology
BaghwanB wrote:I've always had a soft spot for Yamashita Keigo v. Hane Naoki. Maybe it was just the point in my personal go career when I started paying attention to current pro games, but some of their bouts just seem like a fascinating level of play.
In some Keigo seems to scatter stones across the board and then pull them all together in the nick of time. When it works, it looks like magic. When it fails, he falls on his face given his opponent's level here.
Bruce "Fanboy" Young
That sounds very interesting. Do you have any examples you could share?
Re: What is your favorite rivalry?
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:16 am
by hyperpape
macelee wrote:SmoothOper wrote:Interesing thread. I don't think Cho Chikun and Takemiya were really all that intense rivals or Takemiya and Kobayashi either, mostly Takemiya was just too likeable, and didn't have the greediness that Cho Chikun and Kobayashi Koichi had. That being said they did have some epic games.
I read that Takemiya and Kobayashi did not get along very well in real life. So in that sense they are rivals.
Takemiya called Kobayashi's style "subway go" if the lore on Sensei's can be beleived:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?SubwayGo.
Re: What is your favorite rivalry?
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:29 am
by BaghwanB
Here is (IMO) a good one:
(;FF[4]GM[1]SZ[19]CA[UTF-8]EV[63rd Japanese Honinbo]RO[league]PB[Yamashita Keigo]BR[9p]PW[Hane Naoki]WR[9p]DT[2007-11-12]RE[W+6.5]SO[gokifu.com]BC[ja]WC[ja]TI[656];B[qd];W[dc];B[de];W[ce];B[dd];W[cd];B[ec];W[cf];B[pp];W[oc];B[kd];W[of];B[oe];W[ne];B[pe];W[mc];B[nf];W[me];B[ng];W[dq];B[lf];W[kb];B[df];W[cg];B[pk];W[nq];B[do];W[fp];B[cq];W[cr];B[cp];W[er];B[cl];W[qn];B[qo];W[pn];B[np];W[mp];B[op];W[lq];B[nn];W[mo];B[on];W[pr];B[jb];W[qb];B[lb];W[rc];B[db];W[cc];B[lc];W[mb];B[qj];W[fc];B[ed];W[fb];B[eb];W[jc];B[kc];W[ib];B[ka];W[he];B[hc];W[gd];B[dg];W[dh];B[eh];W[hg];B[ch];W[di];B[ci];W[dj];B[ck];W[fg];B[eg];W[fj];B[fh];W[gh];B[bb];W[cb];B[ca];W[bc];B[bg];W[bf];B[ej];W[ek];B[gi];W[dk];B[bh];W[fi];B[gf];W[gg];B[fd];W[gc];B[ff];W[hf];B[ge];W[ic];B[ee];W[mf];B[hb];W[hd];B[jf];W[mg];B[jh];W[hi];B[jj];W[nh];B[qc];W[qg];B[qf];W[rg];B[pb];W[rb];B[pc];W[re];B[ob];W[nb];B[rd];W[sd];B[rf];W[sf];B[pg];W[ph];B[nd];W[md];B[qh];W[og];B[pf];W[rh];B[qi];W[sg];B[sc];W[ri];B[rj];W[si];B[se];W[ba];B[sd];W[da];B[ik];W[dm];B[cm];W[ki];B[ji];W[im];B[gk];W[gj];B[hn];W[dn];B[cn];W[hl];B[mr];W[qq];B[ro];W[mq];B[kq];W[kl];B[lg];W[in];B[iq];W[lr];B[fo];W[go];B[gp];W[eo];B[fn];W[ho];B[ep];W[fq];B[en];W[ha];B[lm];W[km];B[ln];W[kn];B[br];W[bs];B[gr];W[gq];B[hp];W[io];B[hr];W[bq];B[ds];W[fr];B[jr];W[is];B[ar];W[aq];B[dr];W[es];B[eq];W[cs];B[dr];W[ds];B[kr];W[jp];B[or];W[nr];B[pq];W[qr];B[oq];W[os];B[mi];W[ke];B[le];W[je];B[jd];W[ie];B[ld];W[ni];B[nj];W[lh];B[kj];W[lj];B[lk];W[li];B[mj];W[mh];B[kk];W[kg];B[dl];W[el];B[kf];W[jg];B[kp];W[ko];B[ip];W[jo];B[ir];W[gs];B[hs];W[bp];B[bo];W[as];B[ao];W[ks];B[dp];W[lp];B[js];W[ls];B[dr];W[qp];B[po];W[rp];B[dq];W[fs];B[kh];W[ig];B[od];W[pi];B[oi];W[oj];B[ok];W[oh];B[pj];W[no];B[oo];W[so];B[sn];W[sp];B[rn];W[ll];B[ml];W[cj];B[bj];W[ag];B[ea];W[ah];B[bi];W[ia];B[ca];W[ab];B[hk];W[em];B[fm];W[gn];B[ei];W[fk];B[gl];W[mn];B[mm];W[jl];B[nc];W[fa];B[ai];W[af];B[bk];W[ih];B[hj];W[ii];B[na];W[ma];B[oa];W[la];B[da];W[ja];B[ap];W[jq];B[br];W[ar];B[oi];W[lo];B[oj])
Re: What is your favorite rivalry?
Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:09 pm
by Twitchy Go
I love the game BaghwanB. I started clicking through the sgf and then stopped to stare at
. I then scrolled up to see who was good at scattering stones around the board and magically pulling them together.(Come to find out it was Black) Yamashito Keigo definitely has an interesting sense for the direction of play it seems.
Re: What is your favorite rivalry?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:40 pm
by helofloki
Not creative, but definitely Gu Li and Lee Sedol. You cannot deny how amazing their games are. And they play so often too. I think we're lucky to be in the midst of it. A very even match up, two extremely interesting styles, always exciting games. Quadruple Ko. What more could you ask for?