Life In 19x19

Some time ago I had this pattern floating in my head. And I was tring to read out different variations. And I came up to a variation where I could not find a good answer to.

First of all let me say i'm not obsessed with joseki or anything, I just am intrested in this from a shape/reading perspective.

Ok I think most of us are familiar with:

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[go]$$B
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|...870....
$$|..916.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|..........
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]

Howhever I wonder why i cannot do this:

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[go]$$B
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|...OXO....
$$|..XXO2....
$$|..XO1.....
$$|..XO3.....
$$|..........
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]

If I read deeper the result is always good for black in this case and the two stones cannot be captured.
Of course my reading still is very limited so does anyone know the correct refutation ?

Probably something very easy.

Thanks,
Otenki

otenki wrote:
Probably something very easy.

Yes, extend from atari. The fight looks fine for white to me.

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[go]$$B
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|...OXO....
$$|..XXO2....
$$|..XO1.....
$$|..XO3.....
$$|...4......
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$-----------
$$|....8.....
$$|..7OXO....
$$|..XXO2....
$$|..XO1.....
$$|..XO3.....
$$|.9645.....
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]

When I read deeper it looks good for black ...

I don't think that is good for black. White can close off the left side so may make territory there (whereas in joseki it is black who has big potential on the left) and black's 3 stones in the centre are weak.

This is the move I learned.

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[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , .
$$ | . . 3 X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Then Black can start some fighting whenever.

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[go]$$Wm6
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . Y . . 4 . . . .
$$ | . . X O . 2 3 . . . .
$$ | . . X O . 1 . . . , .
$$ | . . X X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O X O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

However, this is also fine. But I think it's played less -- whether for good or bad.

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[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O 5 . . . . , .
$$ | . . 3 X O 6 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Uberdude wrote:I don't think that is good for black. White can close off the left side so may make territory there (whereas in joseki it is black who has big potential on the left) and black's 3 stones in the centre are weak.

Ditto, I personally don't like the result for Black, because I'm not sure what those center stones are doing. Someone may argue that it could be used for special circumstances, but my first thought is whether another variation would simply fit better in most circumstances that this would be good for Black.

Ok so it was not my reading, just my judgement on the position
Thanks for the explanation guys, it makes sense.

Cheers,
Otenki

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . 6 . . . , .
$$ | . . 3 X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Old Japanese joseki, white thick. I don't remember the exact source, but I'm very sure about this.

otenki wrote:Ok so it was not my reading, just my judgement on the position
Thanks for the explanation guys, it makes sense.

Cheers,
Otenki

Keep up the good work otenki!

The shape looks similar to the fight that developed from the small-avalanche double hane in my malkovich game against Deflow. It's not exactly the same, but might be worth looking at because it features the same general idea of a crosscut fight stemming from it.

otenki wrote:

$$B
$$-----------
$$|....8.....
$$|..7OXO....
$$|..XXO2....
$$|..XO1.....
$$|..XO3.....
$$|.9645.....
$$|..........
$$|..........

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$-----------
$$|....8.....
$$|..7OXO....
$$|..XXO2....
$$|..XO1.....
$$|..XO3.....
$$|.9645.....
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]

When I read deeper it looks good for black ...

I don't know that 6 is best for white in your diagram. It commits to one side, and does not look for lots of liberties. Maybe 6 like this is better. It threatens both black groups indirectly, and maximizes white's liberties.

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[go]$$B
$$-----------
$$|....0.....
$$|..7OXO....
$$|..XXO2....
$$|..XO1..a..
$$|..XO3.9...
$$|...45.....
$$|...68.....
$$|..........[/go]

FWIW, even 10 may be premature. It may be better around 'a'.

otenki wrote:Ok so it was not my reading, just my judgement on the position
Thanks for the explanation guys, it makes sense.

Cheers,
Otenki

Not so fast.

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[go]$$Bm1 Joseki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . 6 . . . , .
$$ | . . 3 X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

Since you missed the hane at 5, which threatens double atari, you cannot say that your reading was OK.

And yes, keep up the good work!

Bill Spight wrote:

$$Bm1 Joseki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . 6 . . . , .
$$ | . . 3 X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bm1 Joseki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . 6 . . . , .
$$ | . . 3 X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 1 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ ----------------------[/go]

That is no more joseki. White is thick.

Not directly relevant, but I always think of the small avalanche as this move:

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[go]$$B Small avalanche
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|....,.....
$$|...16.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|...7......
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]

I'm not sure if this other move is also "small avalanche". Is anything without the the extension the small avalanche?

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[go]$$B Medium Avalanche?
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|....7.....
$$|...16.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|..........
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]

emeraldemon wrote:Not directly relevant, but I always think of the small avalanche as this move:

$$B Small avalanche
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|....,.....
$$|...16.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|...7......
$$|..........
$$|..........

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[go]$$B Small avalanche
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|....,.....
$$|...16.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|...7......
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]

I'm not sure if this other move is also "small avalanche". Is anything without the the extension the small avalanche?

$$B Medium Avalanche?
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|....7.....
$$|...16.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|..........
$$|..........
$$|..........

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[go]$$B Medium Avalanche?
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|....7.....
$$|...16.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|..........
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]

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[go]$$B Large avalanche
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|....,.....
$$|...16.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|..78......
$$|...9......
$$|..........[/go]

One of the plays that I had learned if you don't want to play out the full avalanche, but still want an even result is, which seems similar to your problem, but black has given up a stone.

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[go]$$B Small avalanche with early opt out by white.
$$-----------
$$|..........
$$|...8,.....
$$|..916.....
$$|..54......
$$|..32......
$$|...7......
$$|..........
$$|..........[/go]