Life In 19x19

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[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After this routine opening, black’s response to being pincered was a one-point jump. I believe this is fairly common, being the main alternative to a 3-3 invasion.

This sort of position scares me, as it looks very open and complicated, and I do not know what either side should be doing.

What is the general idea for both sides?

For white, given that he cannot keep up with black’s escape (he has to make 2 moves for every one of black’s to keep it surrounded), where should he try to steer black?

For black, in which direction should he run? If he was not going to invade that corner, why play there in the first place? What has he got out of it?

There is a popular joseki here that's often one of the first ones people learn, though there are plenty of subtleties that can make it interesting up to much higher levels. Here it is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 1 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...after which black plays x, but I don't know how to make a 10 stone. (Edit: 10 added, thanks Bill!)

So...why this sequence?

: If white plays on the other side, black plays here and the corner is under attack. If that happens then white is too weak to cut black so he has to play submissively to live/connect small, and black easily makes a strong shape that may be useful thickness.

: Black chooses this one because it presses white in a way he cannot usually resist strongly. His goal is to make his stones strong, so he wants to find the most powerful way to lean on white and do so.

- : White can't push and cut as black will get a powerful turn and attack white before white can attack black, so white plays the best moves available to become alive. Black is happy to be pushed from behind, so he lets white do it.

: White is no longer pushing from behind so black settles his shape and stops white pushing out and making him potentially weak.

So the basic result is that black gets thickness, white gets territory. The position is still quite active and both players have moves to aim at. For instance, black can play the 3-3 in the top right, or play forcing moves against white's group on the side which may die if he isn't careful. Meanwhile, white can aim to cut black by wedging in as below:

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[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |[/go]

So those are the basic ideas, but I'm sure you've already thought of many questions or confusions about all of them along the way. As you say, the board is quite open and it would seem that along the way there are many choices both players might prefer to make differently. Nevertheless, for good reasons this sequence is by far the most popular.

As discussed in the other joseki thread, I suggest looking through and wherever a move is confusing or not obvious try to find those reasons - and feel free to ask! The exact sequence is not important to know or to learn, but if you get a handle on the good reasons for playing each move you'll understand more about this joseki and many others.

Edit: And of course, there are other joseki both players could try, but this one is by far the most common once black has jumped out - essentially, the jump by black is a declaration that he wants thickness. If he didn't want thickness, he might have played differently, such as playing a double approach or the 3-3 point instead of the jump.

amnal wrote:And of course, there are other joseki both players could try, but this one is by far the most common once black has jumped out - essentially, the jump by black is a declaration that he wants thickness. If he didn't want thickness, he might have played differently, such as playing a double approach or the 3-3 point instead of the jump.

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[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 1 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black wanted to end up with this thickness across the board, why did he start with the marked stone? Why not start where is now?

It's a good question, but the answer is really "it depends". Here's 3 recent pro games with that joseki or something similar. Try to look at the board before the approach is played, and ask yourself if playing on the star point or around there would make sense in that position:

PeterPeter wrote:For black, in which direction should he run? If he was not going to invade that corner, why play there in the first place? What has he got out of it?

One very important point Bill Spight loves quoting Jowa on: "Don't run!".

Black's jump here is not intended for running away, it attacks White on both sides! It seperates the pincer stone from the corner and White has to look out for both, so simply put: It starts a fight. Actually White started it with pincering and Black went along since he could also take the corner peacefully.

So we back up one move and ask ourselves: How should White respond to Black's corner approach? In-Seong (a very strong korean amateur) teaches to always ask yourself (after being approached), if the corner is more important or the side? This of course requieres an understanding of the whole board and a bit experience how the situation can develop. Simply put: If you think the side is more important, you pincer, if it's the corner, you play a move in the vicinity of your corner stone.

Here Black has backup in the lower right (his corner stone), so your pincer stone can easily get pincered himself after Black jumps out. It could look like this:

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[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 4 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

attacks your pincer stone ( ) and extends from the lower right corner stone at the same time. This is a very good dual-purpose-move for Black and is one possible and natural continuation. Now the question is: How do you handle ?
Personally I don't like this variation without reading further. My feeling is, is too good here and - which actually should attack himself - becomes a vulnurable target.

A prerequisite for a fight is naturally to know what one's goals are. Just fighting for the heck of it is a common misconception within the SDK and low dan range (my experience). So with the above diagramme in my head, I would not want to play a pincer ( ) here. I don't see what accomplishes because it will get messy after .

Note that I never spoke about Joseki here. might start a Joseki or it might not, it does no matter for now because the only thing that matters is your plan for the pincer stone ( ). Why do think the side is more important than the corner (following In-Seong's advice from above)?
You see, your initial question "What is the general idea for both sides?" should be answered before you play , not after Black played . Black's jump is just any move, if you don't like it or feel you have a difficult time handling it then I would recommend to not play .

PeterPeter wrote:If black wanted to end up with this thickness across the board, why did he start with the marked stone? Why not start where is now?

Black didn't (well...shouldn't ) look at the board after 4 stones have been played and think 'I want thickness'. He simply can't decide he wants that result, there is no single move he can play that forces white to give it to him. He can identify moves that don't seem likely to help in many variations (e.g. 1-1), as well as many moves such as your suggestion of the side star point that are powerful and don't seem to lead to a disadvantage.

Instead, black's approach is ultimately a statement that he's aware of several paths the game could take and that this point is important. It's not the only one, he could choose another not-a-loss point like another star point. It's then up to white to make a decision of what way he wants to push things, and he chooses the pincer to establish a position on the side, but again not specifically to take territory or thickness or whatever because he still can't force black to give him either of those things.

It's only black's most recent move, the actual jump, that declares he wants to take thickness - and as discussed, it still is far from his only option. This is such a declaration because things have got up close and personal and there's no longer so much choice for both players. After the jump, it's starting to look rather good for black to surround the corner and white wouldn't like that so he prevents it...after which black's press is sente and white's best response is to live for now.

So, I say black's jump declares he wants thickness because it starts a fairly sente sequence that is hard to deviate from and which gives him that. But even here, and for all other moves, he's never preemptively deciding what result he must have but simply navigating the game down a path where he reckons that whatever white plays he has a reasonable response. Black reckons that if white plays a move to prevent him getting thickness he'll get some compensation somehow like attacking the corner.

Edit: So what I'm really saying is, when black plays the jump he's thinking 'I reckon white'll probably protect the corner and after that I get to press down his pincer stone'. That's short term reading, no joseki knowledge involved, and black's decided white can't really prevent him getting thickness. But for all the moves preceding that, short term reading branches too much to know a definite result so it's a back and forth where both players try to push the other into a path that they think is good for them.

I guess this all sounds very complicated, and is part of why it's very important to simply play a lot of games and see how a given position might evolve. Joseki come up because with all this back and forth of trying to choose a result, certain sequences eventually become popular as acceptable to both players so experienced players already know a lot of patterns they might find acceptable to steer towards. Many are sequences like this one, where eventually one player makes a move that starts a sequence which is a close fight and so hard to deviate from and leads to a particular point.

amnal wrote:There is a popular joseki here that's often one of the first ones people learn, though there are plenty of subtleties that can make it interesting up to much higher levels. Here it is:

$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 1 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 1 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...after which black plays x, but I don't know how to make a 10 stone.

You make a stone with "0". Comme ça.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 1 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

amnal wrote:Black didn't (well...shouldn't ) look at the board after 4 stones have been played and think 'I want thickness'.

I don't even have to look.

PeterPeter wrote:If black wanted to end up with this thickness across the board, why did he start with the marked stone? Why not start where is now?

It can be that Black also doesn't want White to get thickness. Maybe Black doesn't want White to build a wall facing the top side, but for other reasons didn't want to approach from the top.

Also, at our level, this joseki is good to know for when White's pincer is an overplay. If Black's already got a strong position on the right side of the board, maybe White cannot play out this joseki without bumping into Black's position. If so, then he shouldn't play a pincer like this, but your opponent might not know that.

Though sometimes Black just likes to start fights and attack stones

Bill Spight wrote:

amnal wrote:Black didn't (well...shouldn't ) look at the board after 4 stones have been played and think 'I want thickness'.

I don't even have to look.

Oh, you know what I mean . And thanks for the !

First, let me say that this is a great discussion. I like everybody's posts.

PeterPeter wrote:

$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After this routine opening, black’s response to being pincered was a one-point jump. I believe this is fairly common, being the main alternative to a 3-3 invasion.

Routine? Please. This is go you're talking about.

This sort of position scares me, as it looks very open and complicated, and I do not know what either side should be doing.

One space pincers often produce such positions. I highly recommend them, especially for beginners. There is nothing like jumping into the rapids to learn how to swim.

What is the general idea for both sides?

In general, it is good to push through opposing stones, to keep them separated and weak. The smaller the gap you push through, the stronger the push. That's why a one space pincer can be so exciting. It is itself severe, but it invites a severe response. That can easily lead to fireworks.

Note: The pincer is not so severe in this case, because Black can go into the corner, either by a jump or a slide. And the jump through is not so severe, because the White 4-4 stone is high and flexible.

Note 2: Even when the opposing stones are not weak, it can be good to push through to keep from being hemmed in. In that case, OC, pushing through is not so strong.

amnal wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

amnal wrote:Black didn't (well...shouldn't ) look at the board after 4 stones have been played and think 'I want thickness'.

I don't even have to look.

Oh, you know what I mean . And thanks for the !

De nada.

As for making thickness, I used to tell my opponents that if they wanted to beat me, all they had to do was to give me territory in the opening, because then I wouldn't know what to do. Nobody ever took me up on that, though.

One more note regarding this joseki. It's important to realize that black's position relies on having the ladder at the cut point created when white extends upwards from the side. Without it, complicated fighting that favours white (in this example) can ensue if white chooses.

skydyr wrote:One more note regarding this joseki. It's important to realize that black's position relies on having the ladder at the cut point created when white extends upwards from the side. Without it, complicated fighting that favours white (in this example) can ensue if white chooses.

You mean, if we added the extra marked white stone, 'a' would be a weak point for black?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 1 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 2 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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PeterPeter wrote:

skydyr wrote:One more note regarding this joseki. It's important to realize that black's position relies on having the ladder at the cut point created when white extends upwards from the side. Without it, complicated fighting that favours white (in this example) can ensue if white chooses.

You mean, if we added the extra marked white stone, 'a' would be a weak point for black?

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Yes. White can play as follows:

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If black has the ladder, then can make miai of capturing or the original pincer. Without the ladder, white can respond to the threat to the 2 stones and keep from being captured as well. As I said, though, it gets a bit complicated pretty quickly, because there are at least 4 weak groups to manage total.