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1001 GoGoD Games for your Coffee Break #62 (1 Apr 2013)

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:36 pm
by John Fairbairn
Many unnecessarily rude things have been said in the west about Japanese rules and the people who framed them. One glaring aspect of this has been ignorance of what went on in Japan, and the assumption that there was just one monolithic opinion there. The present game - still scratching the surface - will show that there were in fact many strands.

This was a game for the Kokumin Shinbun newspaper in 1941. It was at a time when the Nihon Ki-in was slowly coming to a consensus on codifying rules for the first time, in the wake of the famous Mannen-ko incident more than a decade before. This game, less significant as regards rules and more as regards etiquette, perhaps, did at least inform the process and showed that even pros had conflicting views - or were complacent, or were ignorant, or whatever. Make your own mind up.

After move 250, Ito declared the game was over. She probably expected Takeda to acquiesce, not least because he was younger and of lower grade. But Takeda was on something of a roll at the time and didn't want to lose his winning streak. He also thought the game wasn't finished, and said so. That put Ito in a spot, but she stuck to her guns and passed.

It would appear that Takeda was right, and a huge trade took place during the subsequent play. It involved almost half the board, and garnered Takeda 8 extra points. But that still wasn't enough for victory, which perhaps meant that this game did not attract the same attention it might have done had the result been reversed (or if it had been in the Oteai). Nevertheless, the Kokumin go reporter Toba Tosui (pen name of Fukuya Tatsumaru) did submit the game to the Nihon Ki-in Rules Committee, where Shinohara Masami certainly did give it his attention.

When the rules finally were adumbrated in 1949, it was obvious that they were not meant to be an exercise in mathematical rigour. Rather they were designed to give a little to each of the many different strands of opinion that existed - two of which we see here.

Of course the game is also a tough but interesting exercise in calculating the final score at move 250 for those of you who study go with a cilice.

Oh, and let us not overlook that the woman won. There were quite a few strong female players at the time - in relative terms, possibly rather more than today. You might know Ito Kiyoko better by her later name of Ito Tomoe.


Re: 1001 GoGoD Games for your Coffee Break #62 (1 Apr 2013)

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:58 pm
by SmoothOper
John Fairbairn wrote:Many unnecessarily rude things have been said in the west about Japanese rules and the people who framed them.


Of course from the Japanese perspective the West would include China and just about every other nation, and China if anyone has a right to have a legitimate gripe with the spread of Japanese rules as a lingua franca.

Re: 1001 GoGoD Games for your Coffee Break #62 (1 Apr 2013)

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:22 pm
by John Fairbairn
Of course from the Japanese perspective the West would include China and just about every other nation, and China if anyone has a right to have a legitimate gripe with the spread of Japanese rules as a lingua franca.


This is ill informed on several counts:

1. The Japanese word for the west does not include China or Korea

2. The Chinese adopted Japanese rules in that they dispensed, directly through contact with the Japanese, with the four starting stones, komi, etc.

3. The Chinese are not the type to gripe about go rules. They happily play events on mainland China under Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Taiwanese (Ing) rules, depending on who the sponsor is.

They do, however, like to be smug and point out that Japanese rules (the starting stones and komi excepted) are really Chinese (Tang) rules.

That said, can we possibly avoid turning this into a rules slugfest. If you think I cast the first stone, I'm sorry, but I thought it was important to set the context and stress that I was providing a corrective. As you will see, I have not expressed my own view on which rule-set is best. I am on public record as having provided translations or data for Japanese, Chinese, Ing, AGA, Korean, sunjang and Tang rules. I let others decide. But not here, please.

Re: 1001 GoGoD Games for your Coffee Break #62 (1 Apr 2013)

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:02 pm
by SmoothOper
John Fairbairn wrote:
Of course from the Japanese perspective the West would include China and just about every other nation, and China if anyone has a right to have a legitimate gripe with the spread of Japanese rules as a lingua franca.


This is ill informed on several counts:

1. The Japanese word for the west does not include China or Korea

2. The Chinese adopted Japanese rules in that they dispensed, directly through contact with the Japanese, with the four starting stones, komi, etc.

3. The Chinese are not the type to gripe about go rules. They happily play events on mainland China under Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Taiwanese (Ing) rules, depending on who the sponsor is.

They do, however, like to be smug and point out that Japanese rules (the starting stones and komi excepted) are really Chinese (Tang) rules.

That said, can we possibly avoid turning this into a rules slugfest. If you think I cast the first stone, I'm sorry, but I thought it was important to set the context and stress that I was providing a corrective. As you will see, I have not expressed my own view on which rule-set is best. I am on public record as having provided translations or data for Japanese, Chinese, Ing, AGA, Korean, sunjang and Tang rules. I let others decide. But not here, please.


I just don't think you get the historical relationship between China, Japan, and the US and the rest of the west. The US and China are friends because it has been a historical mutual benefit, and Chinese while having deep internal political(Arguably started by the British) problems which prevent great relationships with the "external world", they generally consider US influence positively when looking at South Korea(US), Taiwan(US), Hong Kong(UK), and even Japan(US) not to mention as a trading partner, furthermore the US helped China with an aggressive enemy, Japan. Japan is the US friend because the snot was whipped out of them in an ugly war, a war which they started and were primary aggressors. The reason the Japanese rules were adopted in the west, is because during occupation the US became familiar with them, this is why I don't regard the Japanese rules especially highly when they were developed in 1944, yes we play Japanese rules, but because Japanese were aggressive losers.

Re: 1001 GoGoD Games for your Coffee Break #62 (1 Apr 2013)

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:04 pm
by oren
So much to say, but I'll just have to leave it with...

http://xkcd.com/386/

Re: 1001 GoGoD Games for your Coffee Break #62 (1 Apr 2013)

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:52 pm
by palapiku
dude... did you seriously just give John Fairbairn a lesson in Asian history

Re: 1001 GoGoD Games for your Coffee Break #62 (1 Apr 2013)

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:18 pm
by Dusk Eagle
>_(\

Re: 1001 GoGoD Games for your Coffee Break #62 (1 Apr 2013)

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:18 pm
by imabuddha
:-?
SmoothOper wrote:I just don't think you get the historical relationship between China, Japan, and the US and the rest of the west.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:

Re: 1001 GoGoD Games for your Coffee Break #62 (1 Apr 2013)

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:49 pm
by Mage
palapiku wrote:dude... did you seriously just give John Fairbairn a lesson in Asian history



\facepalm :shock:

Re: 1001 GoGoD Games for your Coffee Break #62 (1 Apr 2013)

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:27 pm
by lindentree
SmoothOper wrote:
I just don't think you get the historical relationship between China, Japan, and the US and the rest of the west. The US and China are friends because it has been a historical mutual benefit, and Chinese while having deep internal political(Arguably started by the British) problems which prevent great relationships with the "external world", they generally consider US influence positively when looking at South Korea(US), Taiwan(US), Hong Kong(UK), and even Japan(US) not to mention as a trading partner, furthermore the US helped China with an aggressive enemy, Japan. Japan is the US friend because the snot was whipped out of them in an ugly war, a war which they started and were primary aggressors. The reason the Japanese rules were adopted in the west, is because during occupation the US became familiar with them, this is why I don't regard the Japanese rules especially highly when they were developed in 1944, yes we play Japanese rules, but because Japanese were aggressive losers.


OK, you HAVE to be trolling us. China, or at least the Communist regime, has been in conflict with the US over various issues ever since our initial support of Taiwan as a separate nation-state and the Korean War. Hell, US forces participated in suppressing the Boxer Rebellion. (Sorry, I know I shouldn't feed him, but I majored in Chinese history as an undergrad.)

Re: 1001 GoGoD Games for your Coffee Break #62 (1 Apr 2013)

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:19 am
by SmoothOper
lindentree wrote:
SmoothOper wrote:
I just don't think you get the historical relationship between China, Japan, and the US and the rest of the west. The US and China are friends because it has been a historical mutual benefit, and Chinese while having deep internal political(Arguably started by the British) problems which prevent great relationships with the "external world", they generally consider US influence positively when looking at South Korea(US), Taiwan(US), Hong Kong(UK), and even Japan(US) not to mention as a trading partner, furthermore the US helped China with an aggressive enemy, Japan. Japan is the US friend because the snot was whipped out of them in an ugly war, a war which they started and were primary aggressors. The reason the Japanese rules were adopted in the west, is because during occupation the US became familiar with them, this is why I don't regard the Japanese rules especially highly when they were developed in 1944, yes we play Japanese rules, but because Japanese were aggressive losers.


OK, you HAVE to be trolling us. China, or at least the Communist regime, has been in conflict with the US over various issues ever since our initial support of Taiwan as a separate nation-state and the Korean War. Hell, US forces participated in suppressing the Boxer Rebellion. (Sorry, I know I shouldn't feed him, but I majored in Chinese history as an undergrad.)


You study Chinese history and you don't think they are our friends compared to Japan? You must have drunk the capitalist/nationalist cool-aid. Why do you think they keep investing in the US? I know they give us money, because they are our enemies.

Re: 1001 GoGoD Games for your Coffee Break #62 (1 Apr 2013)

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:24 am
by Joaz Banbeck
[admin]

Gentlemen,

Please remember that the TOS has a clause that forbids political discussions.
( We tend to overlook this one a lot because the politics of certain Asian nations affects go worldwide, but this thread is becoming an example of why we have it. )

Thanks,
JB

[/admin]

Re: 1001 GoGoD Games for your Coffee Break #62 (1 Apr 2013)

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:32 am
by Joaz Banbeck
John Fairbairn wrote:... Japanese rules ... and the assumption that there was just one monolithic opinion there. The present game - still scratching the surface - will show that there were in fact many strands.

... This game... showed that even pros had conflicting views - or were complacent, or were ignorant, or whatever...

After move 250, Ito declared the game was over. She probably expected Takeda to acquiesce, not least because he was younger and of lower grade. But Takeda was on something of a roll at the time and didn't want to lose his winning streak. He also thought the game wasn't finished, and said so. That put Ito in a spot, but she stuck to her guns and passed.

It would appear that Takeda was right, and a huge trade took place during the subsequent play. It involved almost half the board, and garnered Takeda 8 extra points. But that still wasn't enough for victory...


It seems that there could be a completely different interpretation of what happened. It may have not been about rules at all. Ito may have read the whole sequence and concluded that she won regardless. This could have been a disagreement about counting, rather than about rules.

Did Ito specificly claim that Takedo misunderstood the rules? Or did she simply say that at move 250 the final result was indisputable?

Re: 1001 GoGoD Games for your Coffee Break #62 (1 Apr 2013)

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:13 am
by tundra
.

Re: 1001 GoGoD Games for your Coffee Break #62 (1 Apr 2013)

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:33 am
by Bill Spight
Well, gang, I thought that I was quoting this post when I was editing it, and I have lost the original. :( Here is the gist.

I do not think that this was a rules question for the players as much as a reading question. Ito thought that the game was over at move 250. She was wrong. Takeda saw a chance, but that does not necessarily mean that he had read the ko fight out.

Ito passed. My attempted edit was to say that I think it was a matter of honor. She could have made a protective play which would have effectively killed the Black group on the right side. The resulting ko is a three move approach ko, which the approacher hardly ever wins. (There is a proverb about that: A three move approach ko is no ko.) But that would have been using the information gained from Ikeda's refusal to agree to end the game, not relying solely upon her own efforts.

I am including an SGF file with a variation where Ito makes the protective play.



Edit: Corrected an error in my variation. :)

Edit: SGF edited to show what happens if White ignores Black's first ko threat. White's error was found by mithra (#22). :)