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#216 Quietimes vs BGrieco
Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:17 am
by quietimes
QT vs BG. No books, no data base. Ideally one move every 1-2 days. I will take black, no handi.
My first time with Malkovich. Absolutely genius idea.
$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)Thank you for the game.
Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco
Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:54 pm
by bgrieco
Ok, I accept the challenge.
Ganbatte ! (Good luck)
Since I beleive to be a little bit stronger than QT, I give him 0.5 point komi in case of a draw.
$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)BTW, "Thanks for the game" is normally used after the game is finished
Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco
Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:39 pm
by quietimes
Click Here To Hide Diagram Code
$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)Indeed. However, if you hadn't accepted (or implied), there wouldn't be a game at all to be thankful for.
Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco
Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:44 pm
by bgrieco
$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco
Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:58 pm
by Boidhre
$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)This is superior no? I don't like the Chinese overly here given what quietimes has in the bottom right and his good extension up the right side.
Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:12 am
by emerus
$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)No. I don't like the idea to make the Chinese on the other side. It puts even more emphasis on developing the right side (for both players) where black is going to get the first move there. I'd consider moves like 'a' or 'b' to deny black an approach + expansion, alternatively, instead of
, white could play 'c' or one space to the left to develop along the right side.
Though, everything is very good for both sides with the actual move. It's just a more unusual idea.
Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:19 am
by Boidhre
emerus wrote:
$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)No. I don't like the idea to make the Chinese on the other side. It puts even more emphasis on developing the right side (for both players) where black is going to get the first move there. I'd consider moves like 'a' or 'b' to deny black an approach + expansion, alternatively, instead of
, white could play 'c' or one space to the left to develop along the right side.
Though, everything is very good for both sides with the actual move. It's just a more unusual idea.
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 4:22 am
by EdLee
Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote: $$
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$This is superior no?
Yes, in general, an empty corner is considered bigger for
, but
is also a good move. No problem.
And yes, I would also play
at the (a/b) corner.
Re:
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 5:28 am
by Boidhre
EdLee wrote: Boidhre,
Boidhre wrote: $$
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$This is superior no?
Yes, in general, an empty corner is considered bigger for
, but
is also a good move. No problem.
And yes, I would also play
at the (a/b) corner.
So a few questions:
$$
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$So my problem with
here is that a and b are not miai for black. Black is guaranteed a solid corner and no 3-4 approach moves with
complicating things so I think I understand the attraction of it but because of the unequal value of the sides now for Black after
I don't like it.
$$
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$So the game situation, this is turning it into a standard Orthodox/Rotated Komuku fuseki for Black. I don't think I'd play this way but I can understand it if one prefers to play against a known fuseki. What troubles me here is that I don't really understand playing the Chinese here for White, presumably here Black takes the top right corner with either a 4,4 or 3,4 move. I particularly don't like completing the Chinese here for White:
$$
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$a gives Black two solid corners which is unpleasant for White to play against usually. b gives makes the right side very big for Black to play in, though it has a strong weakness. However there are problems here because either gives a nice extension for white along the top. c, a standard anti-Chinese move here is not nice for White because it is threatening a modified Kobayashi with an enclosure instead of a hoshi stone in the bottom right (I've no idea if this is a good or bad thing) if White doesn't pincer which is the usual response with the Chinese but here White doesn't have a great approach on the bottom and to extend on the bottom and not approach the top right here would not be best I think. If White pincers, Black takes the corner and White has to approach the top right I think.
Lack of sleep + little recent play = too many questions and possibly much nonsense.
Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 6:47 am
by emerus
@Boidhre
If you don't like
, then my favorite solution(I think the pro solution), is to make a diagonal fuseki where black will have a harder time taking his first move advantage into 6.5 komi. So
is an issue - if this enclosure makes you uncomfortable.
To your main point, I'd say that if black takes another 3-4 point, white should indeed abandon his idea for a Chinese-fuseki experiment, giving black two solid enclosures is bit too comfortable.
Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 7:32 am
by Boidhre
emerus wrote: @Boidhre
If you don't like
, then my favorite solution(I think the pro solution), is to make a diagonal fuseki where black will have a harder time taking his first move advantage into 6.5 komi. So
is an issue - if this enclosure makes you uncomfortable.
To your main point, I'd say that if black takes another 3-4 point, white should indeed abandon his idea for a Chinese-fuseki experiment, giving black two solid enclosures is bit too comfortable.
Sorry, again I was unclear it seems, I meant I didn't like it for Black compared to taking a second corner with
. I'd be quite happy to play white from
here.
Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 8:13 am
by quietimes
$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)The volume of hide comments is paranoia inducing.
Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 12:59 pm
by bgrieco
$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)The volume of hide comments is paranoia inducing.
I agree. What have we made so far that generated that ??
Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:37 pm
by quietimes
$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$c #216 Quietimes (KGS 16k)vs BGrieco (IGS 16k)
Re: #216 Quietimes vs BGrieco
Posted: Sat May 04, 2013 1:42 pm
by Phoenix
Now I feel like messing with them.
So far the game seems absolutely fine at around 12k level and maybe stronger. And these players are 20k-16k. So whatever theory they lack will not influence the outcome too much. After all, it's not like one can take advantage like a dan player would.
What bothers me about this game is the reliance on patterns and general assumptions made about moves that are very, very vague. At this level players should place stones on the board with general knowledge like "corners are easiest to make territory", "stay connected", "capture, don't get captured". 'Experimenting' with a low chinese opening is just not what will get them stronger the fastest.
Granted, my first 50 or so games looked like hell, but now that I sit atop my high SDK pedestal (cue laughter), I realize every terrible move and every questionable decision I've made, and those I continue to make, are absolutely necessary to gaining competence.
, white could play 'c' or one space to the left to develop along the right side.
, but 
at the (a/b) corner.
is an issue - if this enclosure makes you uncomfortable.
