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Gu Lingyi vs Chen Yaoye with Interesting Opening
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 2:54 pm
by oren
I saw this game yesterday and liked the small Chinese vs normal low Chinese opening.
(;CA[shift_jis]SZ[19]AP[MultiGo:4.4.4]GN[Rated game]DT[20130515 [14\:52\]]PB[Chen.Y.Y 9DP]
PW[Gu.L.Y 5DP]KM[7.5]HA[0]RE[Black wins by resign!]US[www.cyberoro.com]MULTIGOGM[1]
;B[pd];W[dd];B[pq];W[dq];B[ql];W[ck];B[jp];W[qf];B[qe];W[pf];B[nd];W[pi];B[oj];W[pj]
;B[pk];W[ok];B[nj];W[ol];B[qn];W[ll];B[lj];W[mf];B[ml];W[pn];B[po];W[mm];B[nl];W[pm]
;B[qm];W[nm];B[lm];W[ln];B[km];W[oo];B[op];W[qo];B[pp];W[kn];B[jm];W[jn];B[im];W[in]
;B[hn];W[ho];B[mn];W[mo];B[nn];W[om];B[lo];W[lp];B[no];W[ko];B[mp];W[mq];B[np];W[hm]
;B[gn];W[hl];B[jk];W[go];B[fn];W[fo];B[en];W[eo];B[lq];W[kq];B[lr];W[kp];B[kr];W[dn]
;B[qj];W[qi];B[el];W[fl];B[jq];W[em];B[rj];W[mi];B[mj];W[ld];B[re];W[oe];B[od];W[kf]
;B[fc];W[ec];B[fd];W[df];B[jc];W[lb];B[je];W[nb];B[pb];W[hc];B[hd];W[id];B[jd];W[he]
;B[le];W[ke];B[lc];W[mc];B[md];W[kc];B[kd];W[me];B[lc];W[il];B[jl];W[ld];B[dm];W[lf]
;B[cn];W[do];B[fm];W[ek];B[fk];W[fj];B[gl];W[gk];B[fl];W[gd];B[gj];W[gi];B[hj];W[ej]
;B[hi];W[hh];B[cc];W[cd];B[bd];W[be];B[bb];W[db];B[cb];W[dc];B[ae];W[bf];B[ih];W[hg]
;B[ac];W[ip];B[cl];W[bk];B[jh];W[ig];B[hr];W[ir];B[iq];W[hq];B[gq];W[hp];B[jr];W[gr]
;B[is];W[fr];B[bp];W[bq];B[cp];W[cq];B[dk];W[dj];B[bl];W[cj];B[fq];W[er];B[co];W[af]
;B[dp];W[ep];B[ad];W[ri];B[rf])
Re: Gu Lingyi vs Chen Yaoye with Interesting Opening
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 11:48 pm
by Kolibry
Interesting game, thanks for sharing it !
I wondered why at the end, Black didn't played J5, which makes the all groupe seki. Is it too small ? Or maybe not sente ?
Re: Gu Lingyi vs Chen Yaoye with Interesting Opening
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:23 am
by wineandgolover
Kolibry wrote:Interesting game, thanks for sharing it !
I wondered why at the end, Black didn't played J5, which makes the all groupe seki. Is it too small ? Or maybe not sente ?
I suck at endgame, but I think the value of that seki is only six points. Plus white still has the ko to avoid it. So, yes, too small and gote. But still, a nice find, Kolibry!
Re: Gu Lingyi vs Chen Yaoye with Interesting Opening
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:24 am
by Unusedname
Shouldn't
be one space farther?
kinda confused me. I wondered why he didn't just surround. But then I realized it's because by threatening to surround he would get to cut.
I liked
I think Black would have got to the seki if white didn't resign.
It looks like Black was already 10 points ahead and he still had sente.
Re: Gu Lingyi vs Chen Yaoye with Interesting Opening
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:45 am
by Uberdude
Unusedname wrote:Shouldn't
be one space farther?
No, or black would use r8 to invade at r12 and scoop out white's eyes. (Michael Redmond made this point on his recent trip to the UK, he likes the r8 runty Chinese and showed some of his games with it).
Re: Gu Lingyi vs Chen Yaoye with Interesting Opening
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:48 am
by thirdfogie
oren wrote:I saw this game yesterday and liked the small Chinese vs normal low Chinese opening.
Add my thanks too. I play
as in this game when possible, so it is useful to see how Black handles
.
And the fighting that follows is entertaining and instructive.
Is "small Chinese" what we are going to call this
? To set alongside "low", "high", "mini-" and "micro-" Chinese?
I have been following John Fairbairn's usage in NewInGo and calling it the "Japanese-Chinese" or "Kono-Rin style",
but neither of those names is particularly descriptive or satisfying.
EDIT to add: Uberdude and I posted at the same time, so I only saw his post after submitting the first draft of this one.
"Runty Chinese" it is, at least for me.
Re: Gu Lingyi vs Chen Yaoye with Interesting Opening
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 9:13 am
by oren
Kono Rin authored a book and called it "Small Chinese Fuseki".
http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%9E%E3%82 ... 2%E7%A2%81I also think of it as Kono Rin style and sometimes see that used in reviews, but I've just started calling that one Small Chinese from that book.
Re: Gu Lingyi vs Chen Yaoye with Interesting Opening
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:07 pm
by hyperpape
Has it ever happened that both players opened with a chinese opening before? I must admit my first reaction was that it was bad for white. But what do I know?
Re: Gu Lingyi vs Chen Yaoye with Interesting Opening
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 2:15 pm
by Boidhre
hyperpape wrote:Has it ever happened that both players opened with a chinese opening before? I must admit my first reaction was that it was bad for white. But what do I know?
I found 28 without doing any kind of accurate pattern matching. W+69% in my sample. Tiny sample so I wouldn't take the 69% that seriously there.
Here's one from fairly recently:
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2994
Re: Gu Lingyi vs Chen Yaoye with Interesting Opening
Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 4:45 pm
by Unusedname
hyperpape wrote:Has it ever happened that both players opened with a chinese opening before? I must admit my first reaction was that it was bad for white. But what do I know?
I thought it was bad for the same reason playing like this was bad.
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instead of playing 2 you play "A" because playing 2 makes "A" such a big move for black.
At least when I looked at the game black's move 7 seemed very obvious because it was a point both white and black wanted.
Re: Gu Lingyi vs Chen Yaoye with Interesting Opening
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:52 am
by SmoothOper
hyperpape wrote:Has it ever happened that both players opened with a chinese opening before? I must admit my first reaction was that it was bad for white. But what do I know?
I am glad you said something. I don't know about both, but I see people on line play the hoshi and 3-4 as white, as if they are going to **try** to play the Chinese as white, which isn't considered to be great for white, because black 5 can easily split the group. However, if black had already committed to the Chinese with moves 1 and 3, then I don't see that it would be necessarily bad for white, since it would essentially a mirror at that point.
Re: Gu Lingyi vs Chen Yaoye with Interesting Opening
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:00 am
by SmoothOper
Unusedname wrote:hyperpape wrote:Has it ever happened that both players opened with a chinese opening before? I must admit my first reaction was that it was bad for white. But what do I know?
I thought it was bad for the same reason playing like this was bad.
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instead of playing 2 you play "A" because playing 2 makes "A" such a big move for black.
At least when I looked at the game black's move 7 seemed very obvious because it was a point both white and black wanted.
That makes sense as to why it isn't good for white, even though black doesn't have a shimari, it prevents white from effectively using a black invasion.
Re: Gu Lingyi vs Chen Yaoye with Interesting Opening
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:18 am
by oren
The above sequence got played in the third game of the Honinbo matches by white after the comment was made here, so it depends on the rest of the board.
Re: Gu Lingyi vs Chen Yaoye with Interesting Opening
Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:25 am
by hyperpape
SmoothOper wrote:I am glad you said something. I don't know about both, but I see people on line play the hoshi and 3-4 as white, as if they are going to **try** to play the Chinese as white, which isn't considered to be great for white, because black 5 can easily split the group. However, if black had already committed to the Chinese with moves 1 and 3, then I don't see that it would be necessarily bad for white, since it would essentially a mirror at that point.
If you are saying that white cannot play a 4-4 point and a 3-4 point as his first two moves, everything I know suggests you are wrong. Have you consulted a database? (For instance:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?11thNongshimCup%2FStage1Game2).
Re: Gu Lingyi vs Chen Yaoye with Interesting Opening
Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:19 pm
by XiaoDragon
Entered the position where white mirrors the Chinese fuseki into the Tygem database. White has a 62.6% win rate over 529 games. Note that most of these games are between amateurs (7d+ on Tygem).
That should at least be enough evidence to say that playing this way is not bad for white.