Life In 19x19

Life in 19x19. Go, Weiqi, Baduk... Thats the life.
https://lifein19x19.com/

An enjoyable beginner game

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=8406

Page 1 of 2

An enjoyable beginner game

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 2:14 pm
by Jocke
I am a beginner and I would be thankful if someone could comment on this game in which I played white and lost. It was very fun to play but I find it boring as hell to only have a 17 kyu ranking on IGS. Therefore, I want to improve.

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:10 pm
by EdLee
Jocke, welcome to Go.

Re: An enjoyable beginner game

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 4:23 pm
by schawipp
I'm still feeling myself like a beginner, too :mrgreen: - however I have tried to point out some hints for improvements which seemed more or less obvious for me...

Re: An enjoyable beginner game

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:03 pm
by jts
Two general points, one specific point about this game.

1. You frequently make a shape like this in the game:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . .
$$ . . . . .
$$ . . O . .
$$ . O , O .
$$ . . O . .
$$ . . . . .[/go]


This is a fairly versatile shape (called a ponnuki) - but the question is usually, is it worth playing four stones to make it?

If you play like this, probably not:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 8 , 6 . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


In the above diagram, white's shape is strong, but black's development is faster; because he quickly spreads out positions in all the empty corners of the board, black's four stones are probably more efficient than white's four stones. We might guess that Black's 4 stones are worth 48 points (about 12 each), whereas White's 4 stones might be worth 30 (about 7 each).

But what if we start like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . .
$$ . . O . .
$$ . O X . .
$$ . . O . .
$$ . . . . .[/go]


Next white can capture, to make the same diamond shape (the ponnuki):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . .
$$ . . O . .
$$ . O M @ .
$$ . . O . .
$$ . . . . .[/go]


But whereas before the four-stone shape needed to be as efficient as four black stones elsewhere on the board, now it only needs to be worth three stones - black played a stone that got captured in the center of the ponnuki. If we divide the efficiency over three stones, a 30-point ponnuki is worth 10 points per stone - quite good, even in the opening.

I hope this isn't too confusing. I hope someone will come along and give a simpler explanation. The only point is that making the ponnuki shape by capturing is almost always very good, whereas making it without capturing is usually slow.

2. Don't be afraid to take the initiative. Move 14 was on the 2-2 point - the second line in either direction. It didn't affect the life and death of any groups. There are lots of other points on the board that would be much bigger - even in that corner, H17 is probably bigger.

Later on in the game, if black gets the initiative at the right time, playing the 2-2 point might be worth a lot of points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 2 1 X . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . X .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

But conversely, if you get that spot, it might be worth a lot of points for black to defend.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 X 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . X .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]


It's always important to think twice before replying locally to a move which gets points for your opponent and then let's him move on to play elsewhere after you reply. (In effect, you're saying he deserves a free move there.) But its especially important when you're letting him get a move which you could have used to threaten him.

3. At the end of the game it appears that white has six points in the lower right corner. But white needs a defensive move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X X |
$$ . X X X O O O |
$$ . X O O O C C |
$$ . X O C C C C |
$$ --------------+[/go]


If black goes first, he can make a seki and take away W's points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X X |
$$ . X X X O O O |
$$ . X O O O . 3 |
$$ . X O . 2 1 . |
$$ --------------+[/go]


White can be obstinate and try to win a ko, but if he does he risks the whole group (an additional loss of 16 points).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . X X X X |
$$ . X X X O O O |
$$ . X O O O 2 . |
$$ . X O . 3 1 4 |
$$ --------------+[/go]


That's all I've got! Good luck, play a lot and do lots of tsumego. At this point your reading will improve very rapidly with practice, so don't feel that you have to wrap your head around every single mistake you make or every principle you break.

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 10:25 pm
by EdLee
jts wrote:...black to defend.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 X 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . X .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
Usually, B wants the 3rd line, not the 2nd line:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . 2 X . . X .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

Re: An enjoyable beginner game

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 12:45 am
by Jocke
EdLee, schawipp and jts: Thank you very much for this! I will review my game closely with your comments and then I will try to apply this in a new game. :bow:

Re:

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 8:17 am
by jts
EdLee wrote:
jts wrote:...black to defend.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 X 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . X .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
Usually, B wants the 3rd line, not the 2nd line:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . 2 X . . X .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

Interesting, I didn't realize that. Are you thinking primarily of the half-point at F18, or in terms of projecting influence out towards the F15 area?

Re: Re:

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:06 am
by Bill Spight
jts wrote:
EdLee wrote:
jts wrote:...black to defend.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 X 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . X . . X .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]
Usually, B wants the 3rd line, not the 2nd line:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 B . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . 2 X . . X .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

Interesting, I didn't realize that. Are you thinking primarily of the half-point at F18, or in terms of projecting influence out towards the F15 area?


In the second diagram Black looks to be better than 1.5 points better, mainly because of influence. (White can threaten the :bc: stone, as you know.)

Re: An enjoyable beginner game

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:23 am
by jts
Thanks, Bill.

Re: An enjoyable beginner game

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:30 am
by Bill Spight
Some general comments. :)

A very gentlemanly game. Neither player challenged the other much. You at least made an invasion. :)

:w8: would be better on the bottom side, at K-03 or K-04, to prevent Black from making a huge framework across much of the board.

:w16: Ditto. You are not really attacking the Black group, anyway.

:w34: Finally somebody plays there. ;) Black has played with less enterprise than White, so that White has the lead.

:w50: The last in a series of unenterprising plays. Now it is Black who has a nice lead.

Re: An enjoyable beginner game

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 9:31 am
by Uberdude
There's probably a tsumego that could arise later where the 3rd line defence lives but 2nd dies as the former makes more space. (but then again there's probably also one with the opposite!)

Re: An enjoyable beginner game

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 9:46 am
by Jocke
Thank you for more comments. I will read them. I played a game today in which I tried to apply things mentioned in comments that were posted before the first time I said thanks. I'd be happy if someone could comment on this game as well! :D And very thankful of course.



This game wasn't as enjoyable. The opponent started to play stones in my territory without any purpose in the end and the game continued after the first time I had passed. Also, I won on time. She/he just disappeared after making these weird moves. So I had to sit there waiting. However, I won by 46 1/2 points (including komi) anyway. This game did not feel like a game for a gentleman.

I am very thankful for comments if you've got any!

Re: An enjoyable beginner game

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 10:10 am
by Unusedname
Just a few small comments. The idea is trying to realize which of your moves feel like passes.

White 114: there is no reason to take these stones right away they are already yours. Instead you can save your stone at F5 from atari.

White 164: Why not just capture at L3? that would be worth more points. and your stones would be safe.

White 280: Here is another example of catching the stones too soon. They aren't threatening anything so it's as if you just passed and gave your opponent a free move.

White 278: this is the perfect example of when to catch stones. If you don't catch them your stones will die. But by catching them you save your own stones.

Re: An enjoyable beginner game

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 10:47 am
by Jocke
Unusedname wrote:Just a few small comments. The idea is trying to realize which of your moves feel like passes.

White 114: there is no reason to take these stones right away they are already yours. Instead you can save your stone at F5 from atari.

White 164: Why not just capture at L3? that would be worth more points. and your stones would be safe.

White 280: Here is another example of catching the stones too soon. They aren't threatening anything so it's as if you just passed and gave your opponent a free move.

White 278: this is the perfect example of when to catch stones. If you don't catch them your stones will die. But by catching them you save your own stones.

Thanks for comments! Are you sure White 280 was a bad move? I wanted to secure that left group. I understand why the rest of my moves in my territory there were bad though.

Re: An enjoyable beginner game

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 12:46 pm
by Splatted
Jocke wrote:Thanks for comments! Are you sure White 280 was a bad move? I wanted to secure that left group. I understand why the rest of my moves in my territory there were bad though.


I think he meant a different move. You definately needed to play 280.

Some more comments:

:w12: :Right idea, but you should try and avoid attaching to weak stones. C5 would stop black from running in to the corner and would leave you with a much stronger position because you're not left with a weak stone.

:w14: : It's rarely a good idea to tenuki a contact fight, and if black gets strong she may also be able to cause trouble for your top group. I would extend to D10. I also think that the bottom is less important than the right. As a general rule:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +--------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X
$$ | . . . X . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X , . . . . . ,[/go]


This (or with the side stones on the star points) is a very good position to have, so if your opponent extends on one side you should play to stop him getting the other unless you can get something equally good elsewhere.

:w18: : What I said about move 14 still applies, but now black has built a wall on the bottom right, so the right side is even more important.

:w24: : I think tenukiing the attachment was okay, but you have to be prepared to sacrifice that stone if you do. Extend along the side and let black waste another move capturing a lone stone if she wants.

:w26: : Large extensions like this can sometimes be good for dealing with weak groups, but in this case it's too far. Usually you do this when you have some kind of follow up with the extension stone which means you can trade for your intial group if your opponent splits you.
All times are UTC-07:00
Page 1 of 2

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited