Life In 19x19

It really is time there was a viable, fun alternative to KGS.

KGS is a wonderful place in many ways, but sometimes it feels like there is nowhere else where it`s fun to play go online.

I`m not going to list the things with which I`m dissatisfied, because they will never be changed. However, it would be great to have the choice to play somewhere different, but without giving up the things that I like very much about KGS.

IGS is old and clunky, and it`s pretty expensive for those of us based in Japan. Tygem and Oro have shaky, flaky clients that are unpleasant to use in English.

For a time, it looked like Kaya.gs would become a worthy rival, but recently it has not so much slowed down as completely and utterly halted. I really wanted to see it succeed.

Nova.gs looks very promising indeed, but it needs to get people logged on and playing on it - and fast! I keep logging on, only to find nobody is available for a game.

The point is that we can`t just wait for developers to make servers for us, but we also have to support them by using the servers. Kaya can still be revived, and Nova can snowball into something new and exciting, but it is in our hands. Therefore, I`m going to keep logging onto Kaya and Nova, and I`m asking here that you do the same, if you want to have more choice and control (e.g., don`t like KGS`s escaper policy? Try Kaya! Don`t like Nova`s escape policy? Use KGS!).

There will never be a go server that is all things to all people, but rather than grumble about the existing ones we can make active efforts to build a userbase when a new one appears.

Hi Tami,
How about some concrete ideas about what KGS is lacking and what the developers of new servers should concentrate on?

PS>
Edited by me, after I saw the error of my ways. With apologies.

For me, the alternative to KGS is already existing: Tygem.

The client might not be pretty, but regarding all the things that matter for playing, it is great: adequate escaper policy, no-lag-client, voice countdown, very good score estimator, tons of active users on multiple servers, option to play with or without undo.

Regarding kaya, I have lost all hopes. Nova seems great for correspondence games but has no time controls for real time games yet. As soon as those get implemented, I surely will try it out.

Until then ... I enjoy Tygem!

SpongeBob wrote:Regarding kaya, I have lost all hopes. Nova seems great for correspondence games but has no time controls for real time games yet. As soon as those get implemented, I surely will try it out.

Nova already has time controls for live games! The interface is very flexible and updates in real time so it works just as nicely for live games.

I agree wholeheartedly with OP and personally nova looks to me like it could be great once it starts to gain in popularity.

SpongeBob wrote:For me, the alternative to KGS is already existing: Tygem.

No Mac client = nogo for me.

witwit wrote:Nova already has time controls for live games! The interface is very flexible and updates in real time so it works just as nicely for live games.

It does not have japanese byo-yomi. It does have canadian and fisher instead, and for those time systems, you cannot choose the main thinking time - it is set to a value given by the system. There is a time system called 'Simple', which is japanese byo-yomi but with no main thinking time at all.

(At first I assumed that there is no main thinking time for all time sytems, because you can only choose the overtime setting.)

For live games, this is not sufficient - you have to be able to set the main thinking time. Also, japanese byo-yomi is a must.

SpongeBob wrote:

witwit wrote:Nova already has time controls for live games! The interface is very flexible and updates in real time so it works just as nicely for live games.

It does not have japanese byo-yomi. It does have canadian and fisher instead, and for those time systems, you cannot choose the main thinking time - it is set to a value given by the system. There is a time system called 'Simple', which is japanese byo-yomi but with no main thinking time at all.

(At first I assumed that there is no main thinking time for all time sytems, because you can only choose the overtime setting.)

For live games, this is not sufficient - you have to be able to set the main thinking time. Also, japanese byo-yomi is a must.

I believe that the Japanese time system is on the list of future updates to Nova and also customized main time. When the devs at Nova say they are going to do something they actually do it. It's wonderful to see active development, something which is missing from the other servers.

I like KGS for socializing, demos, and teaching.

I also often use wbaduk (cyberoro) for games since I like the quick automatch, voice countdown, and prefer it over Tygem since it has a better Android app now.

KGS with good voice countdown and enough players in automatch would be great for me.

oren wrote:I like KGS for socializing, demos, and teaching.

I also often use wbaduk (cyberoro) for games since I like the quick automatch, voice countdown, and prefer it over Tygem since it has a better Android app now.

KGS with good voice countdown and enough players in automatch would be great for me.

Not to hijack the thread, but I also like Wbaduk quite a bit more than Tygem. Is Tygem or CyberOro more popular in Korea? I often get the impression that Tygem is the leader because it is connected to the main Chinese server Tom.

cdybeijing wrote:Not to hijack the thread, but I also like Wbaduk quite a bit more than Tygem. Is Tygem or CyberOro more popular in Korea? I often get the impression that Tygem is the leader because it is connected to the main Chinese server Tom.

It seems by pure number of people Tygem is a bit more popular in Korea. In Japan, wbaduk/cyberoro is the server of Nihon Kiin and seems to get more people and advertising. I don't know much about Chinese players.

oren wrote:

cdybeijing wrote:Not to hijack the thread, but I also like Wbaduk quite a bit more than Tygem. Is Tygem or CyberOro more popular in Korea? I often get the impression that Tygem is the leader because it is connected to the main Chinese server Tom.

It seems by pure number of people Tygem is a bit more popular in Korea. In Japan, wbaduk/cyberoro is the server of Nihon Kiin and seems to get more people and advertising. I don't know much about Chinese players.

IIRC TOM has had its own client for a couple of years now. Most internet players in China use TOM and YiCheng (Tygem), with the latter probably more popular?

illluck wrote:

oren wrote:

cdybeijing wrote:Not to hijack the thread, but I also like Wbaduk quite a bit more than Tygem. Is Tygem or CyberOro more popular in Korea? I often get the impression that Tygem is the leader because it is connected to the main Chinese server Tom.

It seems by pure number of people Tygem is a bit more popular in Korea. In Japan, wbaduk/cyberoro is the server of Nihon Kiin and seems to get more people and advertising. I don't know much about Chinese players.

IIRC TOM has had its own client for a couple of years now. Most internet players in China use TOM and YiCheng (Tygem), with the latter probably more popular?

Yes, YiCheng is integrated with Tygem, which would make that probably the biggest overall Asian host. From what you're saying, it seems that CyberOro/Wbaduk is heavily Korean and Japanese, and probably the second largest Asian host. There are several China servers on Oro/Wbaduk though, which makes me wonder where the Chinese players are connecting from.

Rather than complaining about lacking features or missing ones, maybe it would be constructive to list things we like about different go servers. Here are my lists:

Kaya - very pretty board and stones, karma, widgets with go videos, simple rating system complete with estimate of wins required to rank-up, malkovich, escapers have to return within a set time or lose, Fischer time, voiced countdown if you want it, video broadcasts

Nova - good board and stones, drawing on board in review, night-play mode (I can`t believe nobody thought of it before!), simple rating system, malkovich, escapers must come back or lose, separate chat panes for spectators and players, tournaments and clubs

KGS - avatars (but it would be 1000% better if you could hide creepy ones!), great review tools, attractive colour scheme, rooms, rengo, board sizes up to 38x38, easy-to-see in-game clocks and prisoner count

If I were to build a server myself, then definitely

* it would have a simple and fluid ranking system (lose a lot - go down temporarily! win a lot, get rewarded and see if you can stay up)
* the escaper policy would be more victim-centred (i.e., admins would have the power to award wins by adjudication)
* the English language would be labelled with a British flag
* avatars would be hideable
* there would be support for clubs and tournaments (including inter-club matches),
* there`d be videos and lessons available on-demand
* there`d be a full-screen mode without chat - just the board, stones and clocks
* you could choose your colour-scheme
* night-play mode to prevent eye strain
* you`d have a private "note-pad" within your profile for keeping server-related records and notes (access could be disabled while a game is in progress). For instance, you might want to record a joseki or tesuji that interested you, or you might want to keep "secret files" on the playing styles of your favourite rivals. You might want to compile a "hit-list" of players you want to defeat as you grow stronger. Whatever you like!
* win-loss statistics similar to the ones on KGS Analytics

Probably, other people`s dream server would have very different features from the one I`ve just described, but of course there will never be a go server that makes everybody happy all the time. In fact, maybe even my own dream server would frustrate me some of the time. But, above all, if somebody does go to the trouble to build a new go server with a lot of features you like, don`t forget to use it! The more we support developers by choosing to test and use their efforts, the more they can support us by continuing to develop them.

SpongeBob wrote:For me, the alternative to KGS is already existing: Tygem.

The client might not be pretty, but regarding all the things that matter for playing, it is great: adequate escaper policy, no-lag-client, voice countdown, very good score estimator, tons of active users on multiple servers, option to play with or without undo.

I like playing on Tygem too, but I feel like it has some pretty big problems. For one, there's basically no social element at all, and most people leave games the instant they're over. Downloading games to review is a huge pain since they're not sgf. Most annoyingly IMO is that the review tools are garbage.

On the other hand you can get a game pretty fast with whatever time settings you want, you can declare a rank from the start, and there is an actual escaper policy.

So the answer is basically "We play where we like".
The Go community will never unite to play on 1 server, even with all the new features in the world. (sadly)

KGS is old school and western go players are used to it. They have all their games records (the GRAPH!), their "friends", their idols. They will never leave the server unless the server dies or until they fight with an admin or lose a game because of lag.

TYGEM is popular because of Bat's lectures. Quick games with no socializing, no love for your own rank (no fear of losing)

You cannot put all the good things in 1 server.
Nova and Kaya will have to find a way to attract players, that's all.