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51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:37 pm
by Zwergesel
topazg agreed to play a game against me, which we will play in an unsual format:
We're allowed to read each other's comments at any time!
That's also why we're going to play an even game, although he's 3-4 stones stronger than me (I've climbed to 3k on KGS, but will keep 4k in my profile until I'm sure I can hold onto it
)!
topazg, you will go first as chosen by a fair die roll on random.org!
Have fun! I'm curious how this game will develop and how much reading your analysis helps to make up the rank difference!
Oh, one question: Are we allowed to read spectator's comments too or should those be hidden?
$$Wcm1 Move 0 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Move 0 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:53 am
by topazg
Hello, welcome, and have a great game
All comments are open, even from observers, unless they post specifically not to be read (in which case, a shelf-life for the hidden-ness would be nice!)
I personally think it makes sense to post openly, because the purpose of this game is for both of us hopefully to learn something, as opposed to win the game, and the more input we get on our thinking, the more this may happen. The last open game (Chew Terr vs mic) the only hidden comments were on a tesuji that would have transformed the game, and the idea was to have comments that would inform, be educational, be interesting, but not actually tell the players what to move, otherwise it stops being them playing.
Anyway, all that said, let's get rumbling!
$$Bcm1 Move 1 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Move 1 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0Strategy and Thoughts I like 4-4 points, and I have no need for forced cleverness in an open and even game. Let's see what sort of game White wants.
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:45 am
by Solomon
This last move played by topazg doesn't make any sense, the only choice for the first move is the 3-4 for territory or 5-4/5-3 for influence. The 4-4 establishes no territority because the 3-3 is open to invasion at any time, and influentially it is inferior to the 5-4 or the 5-3. Furthermore it doesn't make up its mind regarding direction unlike any of the moves suggested, therefore the first move is already a mistake!
-Japanese Malkovich observer from 1755
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:22 am
by Zwergesel
$$Bcm1 Move 2 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1 Move 2 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0Strategy and Thoughts 3-4 because symmetry is boring! I don't know whether this or Q3 is the better direction, so I might already be behind
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:32 am
by topazg
By the way, if I use hide tags it's not to be hidden, but to keep the vertical scrolling requirements down.
$$Bcm3 Move 3 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm3 Move 3 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0I know Q3 has been referred to as the losing move (from The Direction of Play - move 2 lost the game!), as Black should immediately approach or something with the 4-4 stone. I think that's stretching things a bit at this stage to be honest, but certainly I prefer your move accordingly.
Strategy and Thoughts I was planning on approaching your 3-4 stone immediately, making miai of the open corners. Either you were going to ignore and take an extra corner, and I was going to either followup up or take the last depending on which you took, or alternatively if you responded to my approach I was going to take the most useful 4-4 facing my approach, and either continue the sequence after you take the last corner, or take the last corner if you followup my approach again. Examples:
$$Wcm2 Move 2 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm2 Move 2 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0$$Wcm2 Move 2 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm2 Move 2 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0$$Wcm2 Move 2 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm2 Move 2 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0$$Wcm2 Move 2 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm2 Move 2 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0However, as you've gone and taken the lower right 3-4, I can take this 4-4, giving myself the diagonal 4-4s which I find so much fun, and leaving myself that optimal approach for next move anyway!
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:07 am
by Zwergesel
$$Wcm4 Move 4 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm4 Move 4 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0Strategy and Thoughts I'll take the remaining 4-4. I thought about the 5-4 for a second, but discarded it, because I'm not too familiar with the josekis and the 4-4 looks fine too.
For everyone:
If he approaches with
I'll either play this common joseki or pincer the stone!
seems to work well with his 4-4, but I get sente to approach with
!
$$Wcm1 Move 4 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Move 4 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0If I choose a pincer it will be one of the two
's. A pincer makes it more difficult for me, because fighting favors the stronger player, but if I come to the conclusion that it's the best move, I'm going to play it anyway. Don't back down in an unrated game [Old chinese proverb
]
$$Wcm1 Move 4 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm1 Move 4 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:19 am
by topazg
$$Bcm5 Move 5 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm5 Move 5 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0And surprise surprise, I approach
Trigger if you connect underneath:
$$Bcm5 Move 5 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm5 Move 5 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0I'll be very happy with this. I have good 4th line development at the bottom, and all of White's stones apart from the top left are playing low and territorially. I feel the potential Black has on the lower side is significantly more than the cash he's pocketed in the lower right corner, and I have the top right hoshi to match his top left hoshi. As a result, depending on his next play, I can take a remaining big point on the top side hopefully. This feels good for Black.
Trigger if you pincer high and far:
$$Bcm5 Move 5 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm5 Move 5 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0In general I really like this. I think this is supposed to be a bad choice for White because of the placement of the marked 4-4 stone in the lower left, and the fact that Black gets sente to pincer
(from a high US amateur dan lecture, I forget whose). This feels much more complicated than the last sequence because of the fighting that can break out, but very acceptable for Black at any rate.
Will think about the best response for the near and low pincer!
Strategy and Thoughts All ok for me so far, and happy with the game as it has progressed. Nothing feels outright good or bad for either side yet.
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:45 am
by Zwergesel
Trigger accepted! Let's speed this up a little
$$Wcm14 Move 5 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 5 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0Strategy and Thoughts topazg is happy with this! ... Well, actually I don't think it's bad for me at all! His bottom side still has some points open for invasion and my corner plus the left side feel fine for me to match his points and influence!
I expect him to play a, b or c (in order of likeliness
).The top is biggest now, so we will be fighting for that next! I haven't decided on any follow-up moves yet!
$$Wcm14 Move 5 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 5 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:00 am
by topazg
$$Bcm15 Move 15 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm15 Move 15 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0And that's my last move for today, to make sure any interested people can keep up
Strategy and Thoughts This seems to be the most important point left on the board, as both of us want to develop the top side. I'm hoping to exchange development so that I have the same on the top as he has on the left. Then the comparison is between my bottom and this lower right, which feels good for Black to me somehow.
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:34 am
by Chew Terr
Bwaha, I've successfully guessed all of Topazg's moves, more or less. I've also recently started reading
Direction of Play . Coincidence? I think not!
My question was for Topazg. In the response the the high far pincer that you discussed, you said 'I think this is supposed to be a bad choice for White because of the placement of the marked 4-4 stone in the lower left, and the fact that Black gets sente to pincer
'. However, your diagram ends with white having sente. Would black have to leave out
to get sente, or do I misunderstand something? I believe you've shown me this joseki before, but I don't have it and its uses ingrained yet.
Thanks to both players for playing, this is a very interesting format and already a quite exciting game.
Zwergesel: May I ask why you chose a balanced stone in the top left? I was convinced that you would play another 3-4 there, so that you could (try to) finish the joseki in the bottom right with sente to get your enclosure. Essentially, I assumed you would treat the approach/enclosure as miai. Or is this just a decision based on your preferred style of play?
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:42 am
by topazg
Chew Terr wrote: My question was for Topazg. In the response the the high far pincer that you discussed, you said 'I think this is supposed to be a bad choice for White because of the placement of the marked 4-4 stone in the lower left, and the fact that Black gets sente to pincer
'. However, your diagram ends with white having sente. Would black have to leave out
to get sente, or do I misunderstand something?
I ran out of numbers in my diagram for my response to his response, and also I wondered if he would omit it for the sake of the bottom
$$Wcm14 Move 14 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0 is not easily left out - it's a huge move for Black to get, both settling his group completely and being worth a few points. White is brave to treat it as gote and allow Black to get "a" as well.
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:47 am
by Chew Terr
Ah, thank you. I probably (as black) would have extended in the south instead of that, but this is why I lose large groups instead of single stones =D.
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 am
by Zwergesel
Chew Terr: It's just personal preference. I got good results with a 3-4 and a 4-4 in my recent games. Also, I wanted to approach one of the 4-4 after getting sente in the lower right, because I don't want black to build a huge moyo. I never know how to invade/reduce these
$$Wcm16 Move 16 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm16 Move 16 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0Strategy and Thoughts The top is big, so I don't want to just secure the side. Instead I need to pincer him, which allows him to take the corner, but also hinders his growth on top! I chose the close low pincer because I've got the most experience with it and because a far pincer would only seem appropriate if the upper right was white.
Tactics and Variations
I expect him to jump into the corner and play this joseki:
$$Bcm17 Move 16 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm17 Move 16 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0But if he decides to jump out, we will probably play like this:
$$Bcm17 Move 16 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm17 Move 16 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0Triggers:
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 12:18 pm
by topazg
$$Bcm17 Move 17 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm17 Move 17 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0Strategy and Thoughts No way am I taking that 3-3 with your D10 stone gloating over the resulting thickness. Jumping out isn't completely out of the question, as pushing on your top for thickness could be useful to me. But then, it might not be, and that left side of yours will develop. The top and right are both uninteresting enough to me with your stones on the third line and my 4-4 flexible that I'll let that look after itself, and create some chaos in the corner
Tactics and Variations Depends which side he contacts me on. Either way I'm happy enough. My priority is the left hand side, which I can work towards making happen regardless of which side he contacts. The top stone can be aji and no more, and I'm fine with that.
Re: 51. Zwergesel (3k) vs. topazg (1d)
Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:53 pm
by Zwergesel
Hey, don't play moves that I did not expect
$$Wcm18 Move 18 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0Strategy and Thoughts
I used to always play this
against
, but recently I heard that 'a' is often the better and certainly the more common way to continue here, so I'm going to try this now! I don't know how it will continue, it all depends on where he plays next!
$$Bcm1
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Bcm1
)!
I'll either play this common joseki or pincer the stone! 
seems to work well with his 4-4, but I get sente to approach with 
!
's. A pincer makes it more difficult for me, because fighting favors the stronger player, but if I come to the conclusion that it's the best move, I'm going to play it anyway. Don't back down in an unrated game [Old chinese proverb 
]
(from a high US amateur dan lecture, I forget whose). This feels much more complicated than the last sequence because of the fighting that can break out, but very acceptable for Black at any rate.
to get sente, or do I misunderstand something? I believe you've shown me this joseki before, but I don't have it and its uses ingrained yet.
is not easily left out - it's a huge move for Black to get, both settling his group completely and being worth a few points. White is brave to treat it as gote and allow Black to get "a" as well.
against 
, but recently I heard that 'a' is often the better and certainly the more common way to continue here, so I'm going to try this now! I don't know how it will continue, it all depends on where he plays next!