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Any chance for Black to take the upper right corner here?
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:07 pm
by gmsa84
My opponent didn't let me finish the game, but I thought I had a chance to build 2 eyes in the upper right corner. Is it possible? Many thanks!
http://lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3275
Re: Any chance for Black to take the upper right corner here
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:15 pm
by illluck
Yes, by playing one point to the right of the star point if black plays next.
Edit: Opps, for some reason it didn't go to the end of the game - I was on move 33 XD
Re: Any chance for Black to take the upper right corner here
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:21 pm
by illluck
The 1-2 point on the top edge seems to lead to ko. Unfortunately, I'm on ipad so can't really post variations.
Re: Any chance for Black to take the upper right corner here
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:40 pm
by leichtloeslich
Slightly tricky. Certainly hard for your level. I think your opponent really should let you continue if you think you can live..
The 1-2 point on the top edge seems to lead to ko. Unfortunately, I'm on ipad so can't really post variations.
I think so, too. Here's my reading: (mostly garbage except the 1-2 point illluck mentioned)
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[7]KM[0.00]
AW[aa][ba][ca][ab][bb][cb][fb][bc][cc][ad][bd][cd][dd][be][ce][de][ee][fe][af][bf][cf][df][ef][ff][ag][bg][cg][dg][eg][fg][gg]AB[da][db][dc][ec][ed][fd][ge]
(;B[fc]
;W[gd]C[dead])
(;B[eb]
;W[fa]C[dead])
(;B[ea]
;W[gc]
(;B[gd]
;W[ga]C[dead])
(;B[fc]
;W[ga]C[dead]))
(;B[gd]
;W[fa]
(;B[gb]
;W[fc]
;B[gc]
;W[eb]C[dead])
(;B[fc]
;W[gb]C[dead]))
(;B[ga]
;W[gb]
;B[fa]
;W[eb]
;B[ea]
;W[fc]C[dead])
(;B[gb]
;W[fa]
(;B[fc]
;W[gd]C[dead])
(;B[gd]
;W[fc]LB[eb:B][gc:A]C[A B miai, dead.])
(;B[gc]
;W[eb]C[dead])
(;B[eb]
;W[gc]
;B[fc]
;W[ga]C[dead]))
(;B[fa]
;W[gb]
(;B[eb]
;W[ga]
;B[gc]
;W[ea]C[ko, but w takes first and you don't have any threats, so dead.]
;B[]
;W[fa])
(;B[gc]
;W[eb]C[dead]))
(;B[gc]
;W[fa]LB[eb:B][gb:A]C[A B miai, dead.]))
Re: Any chance for Black to take the upper right corner here
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:25 pm
by Phoenix
I don't know about the situation in the top-right, but you should never let an opponent pressure you into finishing the game if you're uncertain. Even if they say they have to run. If they don't have time for a game, they shouldn't have been playing.
It's your journey into this game, and you learn from what happens on the board. Take charge and try your hand when the situation is fuzzy.
Re: Any chance for Black to take the upper right corner here
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:28 pm
by gmsa84
Phoenix wrote:I don't know about the situation in the top-right, but you should never let an opponent pressure you into finishing the game if you're uncertain. Even if they say they have to run. If they don't have time for a game, they shouldn't have been playing.
It's your journey into this game, and you learn from what happens on the board. Take charge and try your hand when the situation is fuzzy.
I agree. I'm still no expert in KGS. Let's say both of us pass and we go to scoring, is there a way to continue the game from there?
Re: Any chance for Black to take the upper right corner here
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:40 pm
by amnal
gmsa84 wrote:Phoenix wrote:I don't know about the situation in the top-right, but you should never let an opponent pressure you into finishing the game if you're uncertain. Even if they say they have to run. If they don't have time for a game, they shouldn't have been playing.
It's your journey into this game, and you learn from what happens on the board. Take charge and try your hand when the situation is fuzzy.
I agree. I'm still no expert in KGS. Let's say both of us pass and we go to scoring, is there a way to continue the game from there?
If you press the undo button, the game continues with you to play.
Re: Any chance for Black to take the upper right corner here
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:40 pm
by moyoaji
Actually, I think black has one ko threat you are forgetting about... that other dead group has one eye.
$$ The Ko Threat
$$-----------
$$|OO.OXXO.O|
$$|XOO.OXXOO|
$$|XXOOOXX.X|
$$|X.X.OOXX.|
$$|C.XOOXXOX|
$$|..XOOOOOB|
$$|.X,XOOOO.|
$$|..XXXOXXX|
$$|..XOOOOX.|
$$----------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ The Ko Threat
$$-----------
$$|OO.OXXO.O|
$$|XOO.OXXOO|
$$|XXOOOXX.X|
$$|X.X.OOXX.|
$$|C.XOOXXOX|
$$|..XOOOOOB|
$$|.X,XOOOO.|
$$|..XXXOXXX|
$$|..XOOOOX.|
$$----------[/go]
If black connects his group has two eyes. White has to stop it and black can take the ko and live. Now, white will then play at the circle as a ko threat and black won't be able to stop it. By the end white will have 6 captures and black will have 4, so white still wins, but black's group lives.
$$ Final Game: B - 14, W - 21.5
$$-----------
$$|OO.OXX.X.|
$$|.OO.OXX..|
$$|..OOOXXXX|
$$|.OX.OOXXX|
$$|OOXOOXXOX|
$$|XXXOOOOOX|
$$|.X,XOOOOO|
$$|..XXXOXXX|
$$|..XOOOOX.|
$$----------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Final Game: B - 14, W - 21.5
$$-----------
$$|OO.OXX.X.|
$$|.OO.OXX..|
$$|..OOOXXXX|
$$|.OX.OOXXX|
$$|OOXOOXXOX|
$$|XXXOOOOOX|
$$|.X,XOOOOO|
$$|..XXXOXXX|
$$|..XOOOOX.|
$$----------[/go]
Re: Any chance for Black to take the upper right corner here
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:51 pm
by leichtloeslich
moyoaji wrote:black has one ko threat you are forgetting about
Indeed. I guess I should have done my reading with the original sgf.
Re: Any chance for Black to take the upper right corner here
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:00 pm
by Bill Spight
(;CA[UTF-8]ST[2]FF[4]GM[1]AP[GOWrite:2.2.21]SZ[9]DT[2013-07-06]BR[28k]PC[The KGS Go Server at http\://www.gokgs.com/]PW[toved2]RE[W+33.50]TM[900.0]GN[ ]PM[0]RU[Japanese]WR[10k]PB[gmsa84]FG[259:]KM[0.5]
;B[cd]C[toved2 \[10k\]\: hello
gmsa84 \[28k?\]\: hi
toved2 \[10k\]\: nice game
]BL[895.861]
;WL[887.695]W[gf]C[gmsa84 \[28k?\]\: you too
]
;B[gc]BL[891.562]
;WL[874.425]W[ec]
;B[fb]BL[874.359]
;WL[870.37]W[cc]
;B[bc]BL[861.135]
;WL[866.047]W[dc]
;B[ad]BL[798.253]
;WL[837.872]W[ee]
;B[dg]BL[779.835]
;WL[834.452]W[fg]
;B[eh]BL[740.911]
;WL[828.252]W[fh]
;B[fi]BL[720.319]
;WL[792.933]W[gi]
;B[hi]BL[688.35]
;WL[789.825]W[ei]
;B[gh]BL[683.533]
;WL[741.372]W[fi]
;B[ih]BL[631.709]
;WL[737.209]W[hg]
;B[ch]BL[526.582]
;WL[660.363]W[df]
;B[cf]BL[508.793]
;WL[657.536]W[di]
;B[ci]BL[478.815]
;WL[615.542]W[eg]
;B[dh]BL[470.515]
;WL[611.711]W[bb]
;B[ab]BL[418.301]
;WL[596.261]W[cb]
;B[ce]BL[375.7]
;WL[589.804]W[de]
;B[ge]BL[360.68]
;WL[563.141]W[he]
;B[hd]BL[314.506]
;WL[515.912]W[hb]
;B[fe]BL[258.014]
;WL[508.466]W[fd]
;B[gd]BL[248.132]
;WL[504.822]W[eb]
;B[ea]BL[220.343]
;WL[495.792]W[da]
;B[fa]BL[213.22]
;WL[493.954]W[ba]
;B[fc]BL[199.445]
;WL[474.216]W[ed]
;B[bg]BL[168.936]
;WL[452.262]W[aa]
;B[ac]BL[157.202]
;WL[452.261]W[tt]
;B[ie]BL[148.138]
;WL[419.117]W[hf]
;B[ff]BL[118.147]
;WL[412.858]W[ef]
;B[hh]BL[102.819]
;WL[410.684]W[gg]C[toved2 \[10k\]\: thx
]
(
;TB[ae:bf][ag][ah:bi][bd][cg]B[tt]TW[ca][db]C[*** Black should not pass. See variation.]BL[63.354]
(
;TB[ae:bf][ag][ah:bi][bd][cg]WL[410.682]W[tt]TW[ca][db][ea:ia][fb:ic][fe:ge][ff][gd:id][gh:ih][hi:ii][ie:ig]C[toved2 \[10k\]\: yeS
gmsa84 \[28k?\]\: why are they dead, up right?
toved2 \[10k\]\: this is death
toved2 \[10k\]\: yes
toved2 \[10k\]\: i have dont time
gmsa84 \[28k?\]\: I see lower right as dead, but not upper right
toved2 \[10k\]\: please finish
toved2 \[10k\]\: thx
toved2 \[10k\]\: gg
*** White needs anothe play to kill. See variation.
]
)
(
;W[ha]
;B[ib]C[*** Takes away a potential eye.]
;W[hc]
;B[ic]C[*** Ditto.]
;W[gb]C[*** The key point to kill. White does not have to play it out. See continuation for why Black is dead.]
;B[tt]
;W[if]
;B[id]
;W[ga]
;B[ia]
;W[hb]C[*** Black has only one eye. White can keep making Black atari and eventually take the Black stones.]
)
)
(
;B[ha]C[*** The key point in this shape. White has a number of choices.]
(
;W[ic]
;B[id]
;W[if]
(
;B[gb]
(
;W[ia]
;B[ib]
;W[bd]
;B[hc]C[*** Black has no ko threats, and cannot fight the ko.]
;W[ae]
(
;B[be]
;W[af]
;B[ag]
;W[ad]
;B[bf]
;TB[ah:bi][cg][ga][hb][ia][ic]W[dd]TW[ab][ac:bc][ca][db][gh:ih][hi:ii][ig]C[*** Black wins the ko, but White wins, anyway. W +8.5]
)
(
;B[af]
;W[be]
;B[bf]
;TB[ag][ah:bi][cg][ga][hb][ia][ic]W[dd]TW[ab][ac:bc][ad][ca][db][gh:ih][hi:ii][ig]C[*** W +8.5]
)
)
(
;W[ib]C[*** White makese seki.]
;TB[ae:bf][ag][ah:bi][bd][cg]B[dd]TW[ca][db][gh:ih][hi:ii][ig]C[*** White still wins. W +2.5]
)
)
(
;B[bd]C[*** Black eliminate the White ko threats.]
;W[gb]
(
;B[ib]
;W[ia]C[*** But White takes first.]
)
(
;B[ga]
;W[ib]C[*** Black dies. See continuation for how.]
;B[tt]
;W[hc]
;B[ia]
;W[hb]
)
)
)
(
;W[ib]
;B[gb]
;W[if]
;B[id]
;W[ia]C[*** This position is called a 10,000 year ko. At the end of the game neither player may want to fight it, and it then becomes seki.]
;B[dd]
;W[ga]
;B[bd]C[*** Black eliminates two ko threats. Otherwise White can make ko.]
;TB[ae:bf][ag][ah:bi][cg]W[ha]TW[ca][db][gh:ih][hi:ii][ig]C[*** White still wins. W +4.5]
)
)
)
Interesting corner.
Difficult.
Re: Any chance for Black to take the upper right corner here
Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:27 pm
by leichtloeslich
Wow, totally missed the mannen ko. I dismissed the other ko because black gets to take first, but of course it is preferable to a 10000 year ko (aka seki in this position).
These pesky carpenters and their oblong utensils!
Re: Any chance for Black to take the upper right corner here
Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:16 pm
by gmsa84
Wow, this definitely was more complicated that it looks... Thanks for all the input guys!