Life In 19x19

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum and Go as well.

I originally fell in love with Go 5 years ago after reading Hikaru no Go, I thought it was very beautiful, and tried playing online for a few days. However, I found myself unable to win anything online, and after doing a bit of research and easily discovering that my country only has 2 Go clubs with more than 10 people, and both of them being very far away from where I live, I felt I had no way to improve, so I gave up on the game.
Here five years later, I noticed that I still crave to learn Go. I am studying Chinese at the university, and a year from now I'll be studying in China for a whole year. I want to be able to play Go well before I'm going to China, so I can meet other Go players in real life and play with them. I want to see the beauty of the game in real life and really feel what it means to play Go.
I've made an account on KGS and I've been playing there for a few days, mostly against the bots. So far I've easily won against the bots (down to the 22k one), on Igowin 9x9 I'm at 16K or so. However, the two humans I have played against defeated me very easily. I know I need to improve everything - but I'm not sure where, or how to start improving.
I heard someone on KGS say you need to lose 100 games to learn go, but is it really just that simple? During the games I feel like I'm at loss to know where I should move and why. I keep getting trapped, and though I have learnt to give up when I can't escape, I have no idea how to avoid getting trapped in the first place. And worse yet, I really don't know what to do when the opponent jumps into my territory. In other words, I really don't know how to respond to nearly all moves. Honestly, I feel bad for my opponents because I'm this bad!
I'm sorry for making such a long post, I'll hurry up and get to my questions now.

Firstly, what should I do to improve? And what should I avoid?
Should I really just keeping playing while seeing my own mistakes, but having no idea how to fix them? It is really frustrating to know that I'm playing terribly, but not knowing how to do it better.
And lastly, I tried asking this question in the KGS help room too, but nobody answered it. Is it rude to keep playing when you know you have lost a game, or is okay to keep going, when you're a beginner wanting to learn the game?

I've added the files for my 2 games against humans, and then the most recent bot game. I hope some of you kind people out there will be able to help me out and tell me what I should focus on to get better. I know there are no miracles and that I'll have to work hard to be able to become a decent player, and that it will probably take a long time. But I really want to learn go, so I hope to get some advice so I know where to begin.

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum and Go as well.

Welcome! Hope you enjoy your stay.

Firstly, what should I do to improve?

Go problems, aka tsumego. Lot's of'em. And of course playing games. But please, stay away from the big boards for now and focus on 9x9 till you have the most basic tactics down. After that you can move on to 13x13 and then 19x19.

For go problems, check out the page on senseis:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?Tsumego

For the problems themselves, google "tasuki tsumego", or check out goproblems.com, gochild or weiqiok. There's lot of freely available problems on the net. The senseis page also has a "go problems on the net" link.

Maybe you'll also find this useful:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?PagesForBeginners

I heard someone on KGS say you need to lose 100 games to learn go, but is it really just that simple?

You either misunderstood or that person said it wrong. The proverb he was (mis)quoting basically says that it takes a little while in go before you even have the slightest idea of what's going on in a game, thus the 100-game initiation period where you'll have no clue what's-o-ever. You shouldn't take it too literally (especially the number 100).

Hi Voss!

Voss wrote:I found myself unable to win anything online

Perfectly normal - don't worry about it.

Voss wrote:I heard someone on KGS say you need to lose 100 games to learn go, but is it really just that simple?

When you first start playing go, you are very briefly the worst player in the world. The more practice you get, the better you become. It's as simple as that. The 100-game rule is a rule of thumb. After playing lots of games, you should expect to have a far better feel for the game (perhaps ending up somewhere between 20 and 15 kyu after 100 games, but everyone varies). Consider playing 9*9 games rather than 13*13 or 19*19 games at the start - they're just faster.

Voss wrote:Firstly, what should I do to improve? And what should I avoid?

Play more. Lots more. Later on, you can start studying go problems (tsumego) or reading books or studying professional games if you want to, but I don't recommend any of that just yet. Go slow and steady.

Voss wrote:Should I really just keeping playing while seeing my own mistakes, but having no idea how to fix them?

After every game, it helps to take a few minutes out to review that game, spot your mistakes, and have a think about how you could have done it better. (Sometimes, when you're in a situation where no move looks good, it means your mistake came earlier.) Often you'll spot your mistake but won't see how to correct it, or will spot that something's wrong but not be able to pinpoint it. In that case, feel free to post the position on this forum and ask us.

Voss wrote:Is it rude to keep playing when you know you have lost a game, or is okay to keep going, when you're a beginner wanting to learn the game?

This is contentious. I think it's rude to keep playing a game when you are certain you've lost and are just hoping for your opponent to make a mistake; if there's a chance you could win, or the game is close, or it's a teaching game with a stronger player and you're learning things, then play on.

Voss wrote:I've added the files for my 2 games against humans, and then the most recent bot game. I hope some of you kind people out there will be able to help me out and tell me what I should focus on to get better. I know there are no miracles and that I'll have to work hard to be able to become a decent player, and that it will probably take a long time. But I really want to learn go, so I hope to get some advice so I know where to begin.

I might have a look later when I have a bit more time.

On this forum, there this sticky post with lots of links to beginner materials.

I recommend:

Playing stronger players.

Get a teacher if possible.

Doing simple life and death and tesuji problems.

Maybe playing some more small board games (9x9 or 13x13) to get tactical practice. The full-board games kind of drag out for long periods with mistakes that aren't obviously punished by your opponents because you can play a bunch of inefficient stones in the middle of nowhere that don't die, so you'd never learn that it's wrong. I think Michael Redmond 9p said "13x13 until 13kyu."

In your games, I'd recommend not following your opponent around. Also, learn about basic shapes like the empty triangle.

Thank you for the answers so far, I have another question since you all suggest playing on smaller boards. Is it fine to play against the computer bots then? One of the main reasons I've played on 19x19 was because when it takes so long to get an (human) opponent, so I figured I might as well get as many moves out of it as possible.

I believe you are on step 2 of the AGF's 3 step program for playing go - losing 100 games as fast as possible.

http://agfgo.org/pages/learn2.php

Playing games should be your top priority. Some will say that go problems are just as good as playing games, but that is more for studying. Most online problems don't come with a clear context so you won't easily know when the solution is applicable in a real game unless you've played enough games. Nothing teaches you like playing a bunch of games. In a game you get to play out every kind of go problem - opening problems, fighting problems, life and death, and end-game problems all come up in an organic way.

Now, you may wonder why they say you should lose your first 100 games. It isn't because you should let your opponent win, but before 100 games a win and a loss are basically the same from a student's perspective - your priority should be learning, not winning. Losing most of them is generally better than winning when you are first learning go. If you aren't losing you either aren't playing strong enough opponents or you aren't testing the waters and seeing what you can and can't do. Don't be afraid to experiment and find out what is possible in go. Once you've played 100+ games, then you should move to studying and you should make winning a goal.

When it comes to board-size, I would recommend actually playing some 19x19 games early on. Maybe alternate and play 2-3 9x9 games and then a 19x19 game. The game is very different on a bigger board and getting a feel for a full-size game is important. Yes, it is overwhelming, but many players spend too much time playing 9x9 and are then unwilling to move up to a larger board. There is a lot more to manage, but there is nothing wrong with learning on a 19x19 if you don't feel overwhelmed. Playing against bots on a 9x9 is also fine, especially because computers are often just as good as people on 9x9 boards (unless you are playing an intentionally weak bot). The key thing is to get in a lot of games, even if they aren't against humans, but playing humans is a much richer experience so maybe play your 9x9 games against bots and then 19x19 against humans.

When it comes to go etiquette just remember this:
1. Always start a game with a greeting ("Hello," "Have a gg," "gl hf," etc.) and end with a polite statement ("thx", "Thank you for the game," "gg", etc.) Never leave a game without either resigning or asking your opponent for permission to leave. Never insult your opponent. These things are very important.
2. Only ask for undos on misclicks, not on reading mistakes - and only give undos for misclicks, not for reading mistakes.
3. If you are playing as black, start in the top right-hand corner of the board. If you are playing as white try to play your first move on the left side (not the bottom right unless you have a reason based on your opponent's first move).
4. Don't resign unless you are sure you have lost (or need to leave the game), however, if you are certain you have lost then you should strongly consider resigning. In lower level games it is fine to play the whole thing out to get experience in the end-game and you should never let your opponent pressure you into resigning. If they don't want to play out the rest of the game then they shouldn't have agreed to play a full game with you in the first place.

experience is most important. you can't get stronger w/o playing. so play. and if you do play, play games where you have enough time to properly think about whats happening.

if you're truly serious, get a teacher. the earlier the better.

if you're just enjoying yourself, just pick an aspect of go you enjoy and look through it.

don't push yourself. if you don't get it yet, then don't force yourself, you will eventually. this applies to complicated joseki, hard life and death, and other concepts.

Just a few notes on some comments others have made.

On "lose your first hundred games quickly": this is the punchline to a joke. You set up the joke by asking, "What's the fastest way to get good at go?" There is a double meaning. The first is that, if you're looking for a shortcut, some way to get good without playing, there's not shortcut. The second is that, when you're starting out, you improve so much after each game that it can be limiting to focus on specific errors or blunders that you make.

When you're starting out you can't even see when your stones are in atari. Then you graduate to slightly less embarrassing blunders. It still stings, but on the positive side, the reason it stings is that in the course of a single game a mistake that seems to subtle to avoid can become too obvious to think about without cringing.

The only times I've seen people play 50-100 games without continual improvement, they were either (a) only playing bots, or (b) playing extremely quickly - two to three seconds per move. (Eight seconds per move is a quick game, twenty to thirty per move is a "slow" amateur game.) Why some people don't improve from playing computers is contentious and I don't want to start that fight here, but I think the short answer is that improvement comes from realizing that you can only win if you assume your opponent will play the best response to your move, and already have picked out when you play .

Other things people have mentioned will help, of course! But you can't escape playing games. If 100 games seems like a lot, remember that many strong players have played thousands of games...

It shouldn't be taking you that long to find a human opponent on KGS. (In fact, most people say they have more trouble finding a computer opponent.) Do you know how to use auto-match?

On MoyoAji's ettiquette suggestions, a few emendations. First: I don't think rules on greetings and farewells are as concrete as he implies. I have known players who find "glhf" (as opposed to "good luck and have fun" or even something personalized) trivial and offensive, and there are a large population of CJK players on KGS who don't use greetings because they don't speak the language. Second: I would say the polite thing is never to ask for an undo for any reason, and, if you think your opponent has clicked a spot in error, to press undo before he asks. If your opponent doesn't offer an undo and you can't imagine playing on, you should smile, resign, and start a new game. Third: play your opening moves wherever you like. Seeing the board from different orientations can be surprising. Fourth: until you are 10k or so, never, ever resign an even game, at least not on 19x19. You just have no way of knowing the result. If you are playing someone who is giving you a large handicap, it may be polite to ask if he would like you to resign.

I'd say even a beginner should resign if they're sure they can't win. But it's fine to not be sure, and being badly behind isn't the same as being unable to win.

Splatted wrote:I'd say even a beginner should resign if they're sure they can't win. But it's fine to not be sure, and being badly behind isn't the same as being unable to win.

I don't think beginners know what "being sure you can't win" means. That's why I suggested a moratorium on resigning until 10k. Beginners usually confuse dejection, disappointment, compromise, and sacrifice with losing the game.

By the way, here are your games, Voss:

Part of the "lose 100 games quickly" thing is that it's hard for me to know what to focus on in a review of your games, since most of the mistakes that catch my eye will disappear a few games later. Nonetheless, some comments on Voss-Newkirk.

10: If you're going to play a move locally, play G2. (Can you see why B can't reply to G2 at G3?) Just in general, you should recognize that the F4-F3-G3 shape is bad news if G4 is empty. Further, you should realize that you don't need to reply to a second-line move directly; for example, you could play D5.



20: Cutting and connecting are the soul of Go. When you cut groups apart, you can usually attack one side and either capture it or profit from attacking it. D7 and E6 can currently be cut apart (if B plays at E7). I'm not going to say that connecting these stones is mandatory, but if you're going to add another play locally, connecting them (maybe with E7 or E8) is a solid play.

24: Hm! Do you recognize this shape? Can you think of any alternative places you could have played?

36: Since I've noticed you playing here twice now, I'll suggest O4, O3, and R8 as fun alternatives to play around with.

42: What do you do if B responds at O7? What strategic purpose does Q8 have then? Remember, cutting and connecting.

62: Not necessary. What happens if B cuts here?

66: Not necessary.

80: Remember, cutting and connecting. If you're going to play around here, it needs to be O10. Then O11 and P10 are cut off from each other and you might be able to capture something.

84: You can still live with R18.

94: It is extremely urgent that you play R13. Worth 60 points.

144: Unnecessary.

154: Locally, the c4 cut is better.

166: Sensible, but not strictly necessary. Even if B plays J14 and cuts W's stones, W has three liberties on both groups and B only has two, so J14 still wouldn't be a forcing move.

168-184: These small moves are worth 1-4 pts each, but the bottom side is almost completely open.

jts wrote:On MoyoAji's ettiquette suggestions, a few emendations. First: I don't think rules on greetings and farewells are as concrete as he implies. I have known players who find "glhf" (as opposed to "good luck and have fun" or even something personalized) trivial and offensive, and there are a large population of CJK players on KGS who don't use greetings because they don't speak the language.

Two things on this.
1. Really, you should do this. If you don't know the language then I guess you have an excuse (but I don't see why you can't just greet them in your own language) but when you are choosing not to even do your opponent the courtesy of saying "hello" that is rude - and it is wrong. It costs you nothing to be polite, but it shows good character when you are. Most players on the KGS don't have a problem with this, I mention it because other servers do. On FlyOrDie almost no one says anything to their opponent. They simply play and sometimes ask for a return match. I have played 3 games with someone, said "gl hf" at the start of the first match and "gg" or something at the end of each match only to have a user with an English name never say a word to me, but that's the culture on FlyOrDie - you just play. That is actually the primary reason I dislike the server, and it was the first go server I ever played on, meaning my experience with the go community was that they were rude and impolite. I was thrilled when I found the KGS and the people there actually treated me decently. I don't want rude silence to be the experience of someone playing on the KGS. Just take half a second to say "hi" and "thx" if that's the best you can do - it's better than nothing.
2. As for the specific "gl hf" I don't understand those who see it as rude - I've never met someone like this, but I'm sure some do (I know some find "gg" to be rude). gl hf means "good luck, have fun" and that is about as polite as you can get in some circles. I used to type "Onegaishimasu" or "Good luck!" at the start of my games, but then I realized that most people on the KGS just say "Hi." I don't feel "Hi" is quite right for starting a game - I see gl hf as much more appropriate. However, I don't take offense when my opponent only says "hi" because they are at least acknowledging me and the game. Due to this KGS culture, I also want to be equally brief if they just want to play. To me, "gl hf" is not just automatic, I chose it for this reason - brief but it conveys my message. In games where my opponent gives a longer greeting, I will give a longer one in return.

jts wrote: Second: I would say the polite thing is never to ask for an undo for any reason, and, if you think your opponent has clicked a spot in error, to press undo before he asks. If your opponent doesn't offer an undo and you can't imagine playing on, you should smile, resign, and start a new game.

Two things on this as well.
1. I agree that you shouldn't make a habit of asking for undos, but misclicks happen on computers (this isn't a problem in real life). In some cases your opponent won't realize you misclicked unless you say so, especially in lower level games. If your move was a legitimate mislick and not a mistake then there is no shame in asking for an undo. It is inconvenient, but go is supposed to be an honorable and gentlemanly game - your opponent should be able to recognize and respect letting you undo a misclick. As I said though, a misclick is the only reason to ever ask for or give an undo. If your opponent messes up and then, after a while, ask for an undo as you are thinking about how to take advantage of that mistake you should not give it to them. If they misclicked they need to say so immediately. But if the move was a clear misclick you should give them the undo.
2. I completely disagree that you should offer an undo on an apparent misclick without your opponent asking. If your opponent misclicks it is up to them to ask for an undo, it is not your job to offer them chances to fix reading mistakes.

jts wrote:Third: play your opening moves wherever you like. Seeing the board from different orientations can be surprising.

As for this... playing the first move in the top right is strictly a matter of etiquette. I can't say that you must play your first move in the top right and that white should play the second move on the left, but it is a matter of etiquette. It's like not putting your elbows on the table. Yeah, it doesn't really matter, but it's polite. In normal server games, sure, you don't need to - although it can be irritating to your opponent. I would say that if you are in a tournament game (or something like that) you definitely should - there is no reason not to other than trying to throw off your opponent, which is rude.

jts wrote:Fourth: until you are 10k or so, never, ever resign an even game, at least not on 19x19. You just have no way of knowing the result. If you are playing someone who is giving you a large handicap, it may be polite to ask if he would like you to resign.

Yes, I like this suggestion. Typically if I am playing a much stronger opponent I will ask them if they want me to resign and I agree this is better than simply resigning. And yeah, I would say that before 10 kyu you often don't know when you need to resign, but there are cases where you have so clearly lost that it is better to resign and move on - not just for your opponent's sake, but for yours.

In the end, these things are all just etiquette - you can choose not to follow it and you aren't really hurting anyone. However, I think of go as a more civilized than most online games. If Starcraft players can greet and thank their opponents, I think go players should be able to do that at least.

Just watch as this thread fills up with more people opining on proper Go server etiquette than with actual advice for Voss.

To Voss: My advice would be to just keep playing, and spend some time on Sensei's Library, which is a wonderful source for beginners. leichtloeslich already linked you to the Pages for Beginner's thread, which is a great place to start. If possible, I would recommend trying to play humans instead of computers. If no humans are available, I think playing a weak computer on a small board (such as 9x9) is more useful than playing a weak bot on a larger board.

As for this... playing the first move in the top right is strictly a matter of etiquette.

The etiquette point involves which player has to reach across the board. It's a moot point in a server game, where there is no reaching and not even a "close" and "distant" side of the board. If Black sees the board in the "polite" orientation, White is seeing it in the "rude" orientation.

Players who can play out an opening in one orientation but not in another would really benefit from switching things up - that might force them to read, and stuff.

As for mistakes - I don't know. I was raised to believe that it was horrible sportsmanship to ask for a redo or a take-back at anything - in any game or competition, but especially in games of analysis like chess or Go. If it's not perfectly obvious to your opponent, then it's just a garden-variety mistake.

Anyway, on preview Dusk Eagle is right, and I apologize for derailing your thread, Voss.

moyoaji wrote: but misclicks happen on computers (this isn't a problem in real life).

actually, it still can be.

I was recording a game during last year's AGA pro qualifiers, and one of the players played a really strange move. We asked him about the move after the game, and he said, "I misclicked".