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L19x19 league - unusedname vs skydyr
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:02 am
by skydyr
Unusedname and I played on OGS and I lost by resignation.
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[0.00]
GN[Challenge from skydyr]PW[unusedname]PB[skydyr]WR[3k]BR[9k]DT[2013-06-19,2013-07-09]CP[Creative Commons: Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported]GC[Game ID: 427877]PC[Online Go.com:
http://www.online-go.com]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pd]
;W[dq]
;B[dd]
;W[qp]
;B[co]
;W[ep]
;B[nq]C[I've debated whether I should have responded on the left, as I ended up with a weaker group there later that I had to take care of.]
;W[dn]
;B[cm]
;W[kq]
;B[qq]C[I don't know any joseki for this, but was satisfied with black's result.]
;W[pq]
;B[pp]
;W[op]
;B[po]
;W[qr]
;B[rq]
;W[oq]
;B[qn]
;W[rr]
;B[rp]
;W[fc]
;B[cg]C[The intent here was to invite white to take the corner, since I felt the top side was bigger than the left.]
;W[cc]
;B[dc]
;W[cd]
;B[de]
;W[db]
;B[eb]
;W[cb]
;B[ec]
;W[bf]
;B[jd]
;W[ci]C[This hurt.]
;B[ck]
;W[eg]
;B[ff]
;W[cf]
;B[el]
;W[fb]
;B[ea]
;W[fd]
;B[ef]
;W[df]
;B[ee]
;W[hd]
;B[hf]
;W[jc]
;B[kc]
;W[kd]
;B[lc]
;W[ic]
;B[ie]
;W[hb]
;B[jb]
;W[ib]
;B[ke]
;W[qi]C[I am wondering now if black should ignore the ladder and play something like the sequence shown...]
(;B[ld]
;W[fi]
;B[qg]
;W[ql]
;B[ol]
;W[pk]
;B[no]
;W[np]
;B[mo]
;W[gg]
;B[gf]
;W[oi]
;B[og]
;W[qc]
;B[qd]
;W[pc]
;B[ob]C[I am not absolutely certain that black has the outside strength to kill this, but it looked pretty easy to enclose.]
;W[oc]
;B[nb]
;W[od]
;B[rd]
;W[cn]C[I thought white might be better served by a move like L5 here.]
;B[bn]
;W[bm]
;B[bl]
;W[bo]
;B[am]
;W[cp]
;B[jp]
;W[mp]
;B[jq]C[Perhaps the wrong direction?]
;W[kp]
;B[ko]
;W[jo]
;B[io]
;W[jn]
;B[gp]
;W[in]
;B[ho]
;W[oo]
;B[on]
(;W[nn]
;B[nm]
;W[mn]
;B[kn]
;W[km]
;B[ln]
;W[mm]
;B[lm]
;W[lo]
;B[ll]
;W[il]
;B[gm]
;W[lj]
;B[kk]
;W[ji]
;B[ij]
;W[hk]
;B[ik]
;W[hm]
;B[hj]
;W[gl]
;B[fj]
;W[gn]
;B[fm]
;W[hq]
;B[fn]
;W[ip]
;B[iq]
;W[ir]
;B[hp]
;W[jr]
(;B[gq]C[For some reason, I thought white would remain cut after this. Just connecting creates a ko for the centre.]
;W[ip]
;B[mg]
;W[nh]
;B[ng]
;W[lh]
;B[er]
;W[dr]
;B[fp]
;W[ej]
;B[fk]
;W[gi]
;B[gj]
;W[kj]
;B[jk]
;W[rg]
;B[rf]
;W[qh]
;B[qf]
;W[eo]
;B[fo]
;W[fl]
;B[ek]
;W[gr]
;B[bi]C[Another blunder.]
;W[em]
;B[dg]
;W[bg]
;B[eh]
;W[fg]
;B[di]
;W[ch]
;B[dj]
;W[dh]
;C[Result: W+R
]N[RESULT])
(;B[ip]
;W[hn]
;B[fo]
;W[gj]
;B[gi]
;W[fk]
;B[ej]
))
(;W[kn]
;B[lo]
;W[nn]
;B[mn]
;W[nm]
;B[mm]
;W[nl]C[Perhaps this line is better for white?]))
(;B[qk]
;W[qf]
;B[qe]
;W[pf]
;B[nd]
;W[oi]
;B[re]))
I was disappointed with my play near the end, as I went from an even game or a slight lead with a mostly captured group in the center and threw it away with a few moves where I wasn't paying close attention. After the squeeze at 130, had I just connected everything I think I would have been doing fairly well.
Re: L19x19 league - unusedname vs skydyr
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:07 am
by Splatted
Damn, you guys are both way above me on OGS. XD I started to write a review but drago crashed halfway through and I lost it all.
Thanks for posting though. It's a fun game so I might finish the review later anyway.
Re: L19x19 league - unusedname vs skydyr
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:48 am
by Boidhre
There was a mistake in the bottom right, it was the wrong atari, this is the refutation I've seen:
$$B
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 1 X O 5 . |
$$ . . . . . O X 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 1 X O 5 . |
$$ . . . . . O X 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+[/go]
$$B
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 7 . X . . |
$$ . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 1 X O 5 . |
$$ . . . . . O 6 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 7 . X . . |
$$ . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 1 X O 5 . |
$$ . . . . . O 6 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+[/go]
Also, I'm not sure that approach is a good tenuki there from the left. It's an easy approach for white to ignore.
Re: L19x19 league - unusedname vs skydyr
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:33 am
by skydyr
Boidhre wrote:There was a mistake in the bottom right, it was the wrong atari, this is the refutation I've seen:
$$B
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 1 X O 5 . |
$$ . . . . . O X 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 1 X O 5 . |
$$ . . . . . O X 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+[/go]
$$B
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 7 . X . . |
$$ . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 1 X O 5 . |
$$ . . . . . O 6 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 7 . X . . |
$$ . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ . . . . 1 X O 5 . |
$$ . . . . . O 6 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------+[/go]
Also, I'm not sure that approach is a good tenuki there from the left. It's an easy approach for white to ignore.
I agree that black should probably play on the left at move 5, but regarding the bottom right, I'm inclined to think that it's more a matter of choice of direction than an outright mistake to pick one side or the other. In both diagrams, black ends up thick in gote on the outside, but with a different direction, no? Black is higher in your variation, but I thought that white's central stone was low and so white's potential was reducible. I'm curious to hear a third opinion on this, though.
Re: L19x19 league - unusedname vs skydyr
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:48 am
by Boidhre
skydyr wrote:I agree that black should probably play on the left at move 5, but regarding the bottom right, I'm inclined to think that it's more a matter of choice of direction than an outright mistake to pick one side or the other. In both diagrams, black ends up thick in gote on the outside, but with a different direction, no? Black is higher in your variation, but I thought that white's central stone was low and so white's potential was reducible. I'm curious to hear a third opinion on this, though.
The key is White normally pincers here because they want the bottom not a position on the right side. In the variation I showed Black gets the bottom not the right and is thicker than if White had played one of non-pincer joseki to take the right with. You don't pincer this approach if you want in this case the right. You can get a bigger corner and leave Black thinner using a non-pincer joseki. Also, White's position in the corner in the variation I showed looks horrible to me.
This is my understanding anyway.
Re: L19x19 league - unusedname vs skydyr
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:05 am
by skydyr
Boidhre wrote:The key is White normally pincers here because they want the bottom not a position on the right side. In the variation I showed Black gets the bottom not the right and is thicker than if White had played one of non-pincer joseki to take the right with.
Good point. I guess the followup question is whether white picked the right direction or not.
Re: L19x19 league - unusedname vs skydyr
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:08 am
by Boidhre
skydyr wrote:Good point. I guess the followup question is whether white picked the right direction or not.
My weak sdk view is yes, the pincer was correct here. I may of course be completely wrong.
Re: L19x19 league - unusedname vs skydyr
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:43 am
by Unusedname
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3331
Thanks again for the game. You were definitely pressuring me and I never really felt comfortable all the way until the blunder.
I felt like me living with that small group on top was a big mistake.
The only mistake I think you made was capturing the ladder. But i don't really know enough about the opening to say whether or not you made any mistakes there.
My favorite part of the game is we played 3 losing moves in a row starting at Black 125
I look forward to our next match. :]
Re: L19x19 league - unusedname vs skydyr
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:53 pm
by skydyr
In response to unusedname's comments:
Move 56: It may have been too early to try and move the white stone. I agree that it's not a spectacular outcome for white. White gets maybe 3-4 points and black has a lot of outside strength even with the potential for a cut.
Move 72: Maybe invade the corner first? If black can get sente, though, the side group could be in some trouble. I thought that when black took the ladder, white would approach the corner or otherwise extend from that stone immediately.
Regarding 125, it's nice to know that I've advanced to the point where me and my opponent limit ourselves to just 3 losing moves in a row before we move on.
Re: L19x19 league - unusedname vs skydyr
Posted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:08 pm
by Unusedname
Yeah when you caught the ladder I felt like I could fix the aji on the left since I had room for a base whichever way you approached.
But I think the position would be a lot more comfortable for me if I approached the corner. And it would have been harder for you to use the thickness I just gave you.
Re: L19x19 league - unusedname vs skydyr
Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:35 am
by skydyr
Game 2 is done, and I lost by resignation again. I'm down 0-2 now. SGF with some comments of my own follows, but I would appreciate commentary.
http://lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3441
Re: L19x19 league - unusedname vs skydyr
Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:34 am
by jts
skydyr wrote:Game 2 is done...
8: I am inclined to think the LR and UR are almost miai. My worry about c5 is that the e4 approach might end up working too well for him.
10: Can you abandon both approach stones?
23: Well, the high move generally needs to be finished off in gote, and if W plays tenuki this is the spot to come in. If it's bad, I think f17 would be the most pointed reply from W. Otherwise B should be happy sliding under the white stones.
54: Why make a shoulder hit if you don't like r9 as a follow-up?
62: Can you just connect? That should be sente, at least. Tenuki to the left also looks big - I don't have a full picture of what result you're hoping for on the right.
80: Endgame, right? S16 and O15 seem miai for the second eye. If you want the group to be stronger than that, jump out into the center, play j14, something like that. Btw I just noticed neither W nor B has played g18 yet: that cut undermines both bases!
86: Cut the keima at the waist; that fight should work out better for you than this one. At the very least, if you need to sacrifice K4, you can do it more aggressively (since J/K4 will be cutting stones, and H5/4 will be low on liberties.
Re: L19x19 league - unusedname vs skydyr
Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:52 am
by skydyr
jts wrote:8: I am inclined to think the LR and UR are almost miai. My worry about c5 is that the e4 approach might end up working too well for him.
My thinking was that he chose to take a second kosumi instead of the lower left, so the lower left was largest. If he approached, I could safely tenuki to take the right side, and if he didn't I could play similarly to how I did.
10: Can you abandon both approach stones?
This seems like a bad idea offhand, but white would be developing fairly quickly, if loosely. Do you like it?
23: Well, the high move generally needs to be finished off in gote, and if W plays tenuki this is the spot to come in. If it's bad, I think f17 would be the most pointed reply from W. Otherwise B should be happy sliding under the white stones.
In retrospect, I should have perhaps played the keima, but I wanted to take advantage of black's weak shape on the left side.
54: Why make a shoulder hit if you don't like r9 as a follow-up?
I have no idea. When I looked over the game, I was wondering what I was thinking when I played as I did.
62: Can you just connect? That should be sente, at least. Tenuki to the left also looks big - I don't have a full picture of what result you're hoping for on the right.
I wanted to reduce the right while simultaneously stabilizing (or at least not hurting too much) the top right group.
80: Endgame, right? S16 and O15 seem miai for the second eye. If you want the group to be stronger than that, jump out into the center, play j14, something like that. Btw I just noticed neither W nor B has played g18 yet: that cut undermines both bases!
Isn't white in trouble after black S19? I also wanted to take some compensation in the corner for what I threw away on the side. Regarding G18, I had read that black could connect on the left side using C14 somehow, though I was mistaken. When I looked at it again later, I played it.
86: Cut the keima at the waist; that fight should work out better for you than this one. At the very least, if you need to sacrifice K4, you can do it more aggressively (since J/K4 will be cutting stones, and H5/4 will be low on liberties.
Hmm...
Re: L19x19 league - unusedname vs skydyr
Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:00 pm
by Unusedname
Hey Skydyr thanks for the game.
A few thoughts of mine.
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3442
I think
Was an overplay because your n17 stones aren't that strong.
Re: L19x19 league - unusedname vs skydyr
Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:07 am
by skydyr
Game 3 is done, in which I get distracted, throw away an invasion/reduction, and proceed to spend the rest of the game playing catch-up until I misread a ladder. I'm down 0-3 so we're moving to 2 stones after this.
http://lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3547
I found this game rather frustrating because I kept reading out sequences and missing a shortage of liberties here or there, which I would realize about a move after I had committed to the sequence. In retrospect, I think
should be one line higher. After that the game kind of goes off the rails.