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Two club games from today
Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:18 pm
by jts
I'm trying to get better at making SGFs and posting games for review. Here are two games I lost today. The first is even, and I get into trouble early. In the second I take two stones, and it takes me longer to get into trouble.

Any advice or thoughts?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3358
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3359
Re: Two club games from today
Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:17 pm
by Splatted
Probably way off but here are some thoughts on game 1:
33: I can't see how you can look at this position and think saving the lone stone at B7 takes priority. In the process of saving it you strengthened white considerably, and for it to have any meaning you have to save all your stones anyway, so why not just connect and strengthen all your stones without helping white's?
S7 also seems to be sente and a very important shape move.
41:
The idea of E7 was that if I had no attack on D9, my entire way of playing up to here was ridiculous.
I agree, but I think the reverse is also true to a certain extent; if white can't attack the C6 stones, what is the point of his C7 group? I don't know how closely you looked at G7, but it seems like the best option to me. If white defends the bottom you can probably gain enough strength to play C12 and make it a fight between two weak groups, and if he decides to save his C7 group by attacking C11 you can make it a trade resulting in you both saving your weak groups.
53: I'd just poke on through with G9.
59: G6 seems much better shape here.
Re: Two club games from today
Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:50 am
by quantumf
It's 23 that I find a bit odd. Why not just pull back with a 2 space jump on the third line? Later you can look forward to invading on the bottom area, as white is likely to do something about your largish moyo now, rather than growing/securing the bottom.
Beyond that, what about 29 at C11? This way white also gets a running group (and you're taking more territory). You're a little outnumbered in the middle, but you should be fine.
Re: Two club games from today
Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:40 am
by jts
Thanks for the suggestions, guys.
Re: Two club games from today
Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:09 am
by drmwc
Move 45 in the first game:
$$cm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 7 4 . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 6 5 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . . O X . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . O . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 7 4 . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 6 5 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . . O X . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . O . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think you can cut on the oustside. This sets up a crane's nest thing, so whilte collapses in the line above (and many other lines as well). SO white needs to abandon the 2 cutting stones:
$$cm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 4 . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 7 5 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . . O X . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . O . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm45
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O 2 . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O 1 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . 4 . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 7 5 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . . . . X . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . O . . . . O X . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . O . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
However, 52 doens't work - B can bust out of the net. So this is good for black as well.
Re: Two club games from today
Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:43 am
by jts
Thanks, drwmc. That's quite clever!
Re: Two club games from today
Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:03 pm
by lovelove
short review for game 2
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3362
Re: Two club games from today
Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:01 pm
by jts
Thank you, lovelove. Very interesting pespective - not just better reading than mine, but different positional judgment as well.
My view was that I was aiming at having thickness on the right side, so I was anxious to get rid of the cutting points at n13 and o14 by capturing stones. But now that you've said you like emphasizing the top, it's hard to see anything threatening about those cuts!
Btw, "ajious" is my new favorite word.
Re: Two club games from today
Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:23 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Comments about game 1:
It is late, so my comments may not be tactically sound, but there is interesting stuff about shape and direction.
Overall, I think that C6 was an overplay that got you into trouble. P4 - as your opponent claimed - may have been an overplay too. There is a similarity in the way that you handled both lower corners. You let your groups become heavy in the presence of numerically superior forces, when there were alternatives for lighter play and/or better shape.
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]PW[opponent]PB[me]DT[2013-07-14]RE[W+Resign];B[pd];W[dp];B[dc];W[qp];B[ce];W[qf](;B[nd]C[JB: Looks fine to me.];W[pj];B[op]C[My opponent informs me that this move is "really bad" and that I have fallen into the claws of the Kobayashi.
JB: At this point you sadly inform him that the Kobayashi has been refuted. If you win, you appear to be right. If you lose, you claim to have forgotten the proper line.];W[lp];B[qq](;W[rq]C[JB: This would seem to be theoretically better for W than the alternate line. White has surrounding strength and should benefit most from a slow buildup. Black, OTOH, wants a quick fight - which is likely to evolve from a crosscut.];B[pq];W[ro](;B[on]C[JB: I don't know the Kobayashi well enogh to say that this is bad, but it plays into white's hands. See variations.];W[pm];B[mo]C[JB: This is just too passive. It can't be best];W[lo];B[mn];W[gq]C[I'm not unhappy with this result for B. His LR group is stable and he still has the opportunity to expand his side. If W takes the top instead, there is a big gap between D4 and M4.
JB: Seems like an overplay to me.](;B[cn];W[cp](;B[en]C[JB: Doubling down. See variations.];W[go]C[JB: This seems ideal for white. He gets a lot for his two stones, and you get so little for yours.]TR[mn][mo][lo][lp](;B[jc]C[This is a great example of the principle "urgent moves before big moves". K17 is worth a lot of points, but now the game is all about W's attack on C7.];W[dm](;B[dn]C[This now seems way to heavy and confident about pulling the group out. I'm not sure what the best alternative is, though - it didn't occur to us that this was bad in review.];W[ck]C[W commented in review that he didn't like this move, but it seems plausible to me - good use of the forcing stone.];B[el];W[cm](;B[bm]C[My idea was to provoke B8 and remove any requirement to connect around E7, but that didn't work.];W[bo]C[Now W actually manages to let B live independently with B7 without threatening any real attack on the C7 group.
JB: Play B6 and thank him. You WANT to connect, right?](;B[bl];W[dk];B[bk];W[bn]C[JB: Alas, your game is now over.

];B[ci];W[di](;B[cj]C[JB: Either extend or hane, and devil take the hindmost.];W[dj];B[em]C[This is a pretty miserable move. It's so heavy. Alternative ideas: play C12 and let W have D6 if ihe wants; reduce lightly around L7. During the review, I looked into G6, but it's not promising.
The idea of E7 was that if I had no attack on D9, my entire way of playing up to here was ridiculous.];W[ch];B[bh];W[bg](;B[bi];W[dg];B[aj];W[hl];B[eh];W[dh];B[fk]C[JB: I must say that I admire your persistence.

];W[fj];B[hk]C[This doesn't really work very well.];W[gk];B[gl];W[gj];B[hm];W[il];B[gm];W[im];B[ho](;W[in]C[Having read out the cut in the game and in the review and again now, I'm still not sure whether or not W can cut at h6.];B[hn];W[hp];B[io];W[kn];B[ep];W[eq];B[fp];W[fq](;B[jo](;W[kq];B[jn];W[km];B[jm];W[jl];B[kl];W[ij];B[kk];W[jj];B[iq];W[gp]C[This is the one move I'm not sure about.];B[lm]C[Now B has some tiny hope...];W[ip];B[ko];W[ln];B[jq];W[jp];B[kp];W[lq];B[kr];W[lr];B[jr];W[nq];B[nr]C[This is horrible. I has hallucinating a connection.];W[or];B[mr];W[mq];B[oq];W[ns];B[pr];W[ms];B[hr];W[gr];B[is];W[ks];B[nr];W[mr];B[np];W[hq];B[ps];W[ls])(;W[kl]C[I was expecting something like this.]))(;B[fo]C[In the game W thought this moe lived, but not quite.];W[fn];B[gn];W[gp];B[fm];W[do]))(;W[hn];B[gn];W[in];B[ep]LB[fp:B][eq:A]))(;B[cg]C[We didn't notice this in the game or the review. This makes a serious difference. If B doesn't need to live in gote he has many more options for dealing with E6.];W[dh];B[bi](;W[dg];B[hm]LB[cf:B][aj:A]C[A and B should be miai to live. (Playing B directly is big, but I don't think I have any attack on D10.)])(;W[cf];B[dg](;W[df];B[eg];W[be]C[This way damages B's UL, but ruins W's attack.];B[dl];W[cl];B[eh])(;W[bf];B[df];W[be];B[cd]C[Also better than the game.]))))(;B[ch]C[JB: You still need G6 ]))(;B[bn]C[JB: The honte move.])(;B[dk]C[JB: Or you can play more aggressively with the shape stealing move.](;W[bl];B[cl];W[dl];B[em];W[cl](;B[bn])(;B[cj];W[bn];B[bk];W[am];B[ej]))(;W[em];B[fm](;W[fn];B[cl])(;W[cl];B[cj]C[JB: Continue along the same theme of shape...it may work...]))))(;B[gn]C[JB: Now that you have bet the farm, you have to pull them out. Attaching to a strong stone costs you very little.]))(;B[dj])(;B[cl])(;B[dl]))(;B[dj]C[JB: Yep, this looks better.]))(;B[ck]C[JB: You could follow the principle of backing away from the opponent's strength.])(;B[go]C[JB: Or call C6 a delaying stone and keep it light, then aim for the gap between G3 and M4.](;W[ip]C[JB: If he protects in the standard manner...];B[en]C[JB...now E6 does not look so bad.])(;W[en];B[hq]TR[lo][lp])))(;B[dj]C[An observer commented in review that D10 is better than C6. Obviously a white move around C7 is too narrow now.])(;B[cm]C[JB: This limits white expansion along the left also. And it still looks at invading with C4.]))(;B[qn];W[po](;B[on];W[pn])(;B[lq]))(;B[pm])(;B[om]C[JB: You have ladder breakers. This may be fun.];W[ql];B[ip]))(;W[pq]C[This move was discussed as better for W - it leads to complex sequences (which I don't know). On the whole, though, I'm happier with B's result after W12@s2.]))(;B[nc]LB[ic:B][oq:A]C[I quickly regretted Black 7. It seems to me that I now have sente to approach around A, which is then the largest point on the board (B being uninteresting). ]))
Re: Two club games from today
Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:56 am
by drmwc
Game 2 at the top, there is a nice teusji for black
First of all consider this line:
$$Wcm1 Reference
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 8 3 4 O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 1 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 2 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Reference
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 8 3 4 O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 1 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 2 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]
Now consider this attachment for black:
$$Wcm1 tesuji!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 4 3 . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 tesuji!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 4 3 . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]
White has two options. One is similar to the reference diagram:
$$Wcm1 tesuji! good for black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 4 3 6 O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 1 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 tesuji! good for black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 4 3 6 O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 1 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]
The key point is that white has lost an extra stone in the ladder. This is an unconditional loss for white, losing all types of nice endgame moves relative to the reference diagram.
White can also consider this:
$$Wcm1 alternative line
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 4 3 . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 1 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 alternative line
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 X X O X . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 4 3 . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 1 X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$[/go]
Black gets a comfortable position. White's centre group is short of liberties and on the run, and black should get eyes along the top easily enough.
Re: Two club games from today
Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:35 pm
by jts
Wow, excellent tesuji, Drmwc. It's so nice to see an opportunity to play that sort of wrong-side attachment.
Joaz, thanks for the suggestions. I particularly like the eye-stealing variation at 33.