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Playing White in Handicap Games
Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:45 pm
by tekesta
Hello. For the first time in many weeks, I played on KGS. In my first game, I played White against "AnnaLena", who took 4 stones, and lost by 14.5 pts. after 204 moves.
http://files.gokgs.com/games/2013/7/24/chincharra-AnnaLena.sgf
Then I played again, this time as Black and taking 4 stones, against "nekomataya" and won by resignation after 120 moves.
http://files.gokgs.com/games/2013/7/24/nekomataya-chincharra.sgf
I am submitting these games to learn more about how it is that White should play in a handi game. Much obliged in advance for your kind comments.
Re: Playing White in Handicap Games
Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:58 pm
by skydyr
For the first game:
Move 3: Too slow. A common tactic is to approach the opposite corner on the same side.
Move 31: Often the descent is better than the hane, because it is sente and doesn't allow later forcing moves.
Moves 33 and 35: I don't like this trade. white's wall is left floating and the group white was attacking or containing is perfectly safe now. If white is going to play against the upper right corner, maybe approach from the top side, inducing black to defend the corner and then making a jump by the top right side white group natural.
Move 39: Consider taking the corner instead?
Moves 41-46: White's first move is kind of slow. The ensuing sequence by black is painful.
Move 47: This isn't an attack because black's group is alive already. If you want to grow the top side, this is fine, but it damages the floating white wall by inducing black to surround it more.
Through 54: Black didn't jump far enough so white can play out this way, which is good. However, the decision to make black strong earlier by not responding to the peep hurts now, as black is naturally pushed into the area where white wants to make territory.
After that, the endgame started. Usually in a handicap game, white wants to be gaining on black for the whole game, to catch up and pass black in the endgame. Here, though, most of the endgame was played with Black making large reductions in sente.
Overall, I think white played a little too solidly and then left himself with a weak group to take care of that let black reduce a lot of white's potential.
Re: Playing White in Handicap Games
Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:03 pm
by moyoaji
Here are my thoughts on the first game. I left final thoughts on the last move.
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3417
Re: Playing White in Handicap Games
Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:25 pm
by Boidhre
Generally moyoaji you don't make that hane with

in your first variation, you extend instead. There is a lot of aji in the cut there.
Re: Playing White in Handicap Games
Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:51 pm
by moyoaji
Boidhre wrote:Generally moyoaji you don't make that hane with

in your first variation, you extend instead. There is a lot of aji in the cut there.
Ah, true. I was playing the basic 3-3 invasion with a two-space low enclosure without considering the stone on the outside until the end. You are right, that cut becomes a headache for black even before the mistake I showed.
Re: Playing White in Handicap Games
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:45 am
by headless
A few comments as a 4k player.
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3422
Re: Playing White in Handicap Games
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:03 am
by Bill Spight
You actually played White in the first game pretty well. By move 50 or so you had good chances of winning. You started off playing slow, and you might not have done so well against a different style, but there is little to complain about in terms of giving handicaps. Your worst play in that regard was

, allowing Black to connect his weak group with

.
Divide and conquer is a good go motto.
One go proverb to keep in mind is,
The opponent's play is my play. You missed chances to take away a good move for the opponent by playing there yourself.
You also failed to make a diagonal play to the second line where the opponent also has such a play. That play is often called a double sente. It is much bigger than it looks.
A number of times you made the mistake of pushing from behind. That is usually the wrong thing to do. Get ahead if you can.
Several comments:
(;CA[UTF-8]SZ[19]FF[4]AP[GOWrite:2.2.21]GM[1]ST[2]OT[5x20 byo-yomi]KM[0.5]FG[259:]RU[Japanese]C[AnnaLena \[16k\]\: hi
chincharra \[12k?\]\: hi
]PM[0]AB[dd][dp][pp][pd]PB[AnnaLena]BR[16k]TM[300.0]HA[4]GN[ ]PC[The KGS Go Server at http\://www.gokgs.com/]PW[chincharra]RE[B+14.50]WR[12k]DT[2013-07-24]
;WL[285.804]W[fc]
;B[cg]BL[295.509]
(
;C[*** Slow. See variation.]WL[283.127]W[ic]
;B[qj]BL[291.593]
;WL[274.725]W[fq]
;B[dq]BL[287.289]
(
;C[*** Slow. And see variation.]WL[272.538]W[iq]
;B[cj]BL[284.467]
(
;C[*** Good idea. See variation.]WL[270.048]W[cm]
;B[cn]BL[282.424]
(
;C[*** Heavy. It is hard to throw these stones away, but they have no eyes. See variation.]WL[268.94]W[dm]
;B[dn]BL[280.614]
;WL[267.78]W[em]
;B[ek]BL[276.303]
;WL[261.394]W[pm]
;B[qn]BL[269.015]
;WL[260.025]W[qm]
;B[pn]BL[266.812]
;WL[255.45]W[om]
;B[on]BL[264.749]
;WL[254.379]W[nm]
;B[nn]BL[263.034]
;WL[253.306]W[qg]
;B[rh]BL[258.727]
;WL[250.305]W[rg]
;B[rl]BL[254.525]
;WL[248.579]W[rm]
;B[ql]BL[252.465]
(
;C[*** Bad shape. Accomplishes little. See variations.]WL[247.333]W[pl]
;B[rn]BL[250.687]
;WL[242.628]W[sl]
;B[rj]BL[246.821]
(
;C[*** See variation.]WL[235.742]W[qc]
;B[sn]BL[242.767]
(
;C[*** Allowing Black to connect is bad. See variation.]WL[219.576]W[qd]
;B[sm]BL[240.987]
;WL[212.415]W[lq]
;B[nq]BL[238.441]
;WL[207.134]W[ff]
;B[cc]BL[235.331]
;WL[204.442]W[lc]
;C[*** Now the six White stones need shoring up.]B[mn]BL[232.595]
(
;C[*** But pushing from behind is not generally a good idea. See variation.]WL[202.85]W[mm]
;B[ln]BL[230.904]
;C[*** Still pushing the cart from behind.]WL[201.141]W[lm]
;B[oj]BL[227.19]
;WL[196.078]W[oh]
;B[nk]BL[224.851]
;WL[191.986]W[lk]
;B[mj]BL[221.177]
;WL[190.787]W[lj]
;C[*** Actually, for a four stone game White has done pretty well. ]B[mi]BL[219.077]
(
;C[*** Pushing from behind again. See variation.]WL[186.556]W[li]
;B[mh]BL[217.154]
;WL[183.671]W[ne]
;B[lh]BL[214.992]
;WL[182.088]W[kh]
;B[lf]BL[212.975]
;WL[178.107]W[ig]
;B[eg]BL[209.826]
;C[*** Good block.]WL[176.132]W[fg]
;B[ef]BL[206.18]
(
;C[*** Allows Black to push White around a bit. See variations.]WL[174.075]W[ed]
;B[ee]BL[204.146]
;WL[172.225]W[fe]
;B[ec]BL[202.045]
(
;C[*** See variation.]WL[171.164]W[fd]
;B[eb]BL[200.117]
;WL[169.86]W[fb]
;B[fa]BL[198.028]
;WL[168.725]W[ga]
;B[ea]BL[196.517]
;WL[168.053]W[gb]
;C[*** White has lost a little ground, but still has chances.]B[eh]BL[194.516]
(
;C[*** Pushing from behind again. See variations.]WL[166.78]W[fh]
;B[fi]BL[193.007]
(
;C[*** Not a bad play, but inconsistent. See variation.]WL[163.143]W[fo]
;B[gi]BL[190.202]
(
;C[*** Not as good as it looks. See variations.]WL[155.077]W[jn]
;B[ko]BL[187.244]
;C[*** Unnecessary.]WL[154.016]W[kn]
;B[jp]BL[182.855]
;WL[152.732]W[ip]
;B[jq]BL[180.828]
;WL[151.35]W[jr]
(
;C[*** Did Black miss a trick here? See variation.]B[lp]BL[178.108]
(
;C[*** See variation.]WL[149.71]W[kq]
;B[kp]BL[175.354]
;WL[145.232]W[jo]
;B[mq]BL[172.963]
;WL[143.173]W[lr]
;B[mr]BL[171.011]
(
;C[*** Unnecessary. See variation.]WL[142.212]W[ks]
;C[*** White has few chances now. End of comments.]B[er]BL[167.552]
;WL[140.568]W[fr]
;B[fs]BL[165.322]
;WL[138.853]W[gs]
;B[es]BL[162.084]
;WL[138.273]W[gr]
;B[eq]BL[160.491]
;WL[133.661]W[en]
;B[bn]BL[158.218]
;WL[131.984]W[bm]
;B[an]BL[156.143]
;WL[130.521]W[am]
;B[bk]BL[154.278]
;WL[125.457]W[pi]
;B[pj]BL[151.349]
;WL[123.374]W[nh]
;B[mf]BL[148.493]
;WL[122.25]W[nf]
;B[kd]BL[145.926]
;WL[119.871]W[kc]
;B[jd]BL[144.491]
;WL[115.968]W[ie]
;B[id]BL[140.952]
;WL[114.218]W[hd]
;B[je]BL[137.871]
;WL[111.715]W[jc]
;B[ld]BL[135.737]
;WL[109.496]W[md]
;B[kf]BL[132.429]
;WL[100.643]W[ni]
;B[nj]BL[128.949]
;WL[87.432]W[jf]
;B[jg]BL[125.116]
;WL[84.209]W[jh]
;B[if]BL[123.204]
;WL[83.079]W[he]
;B[kg]BL[120.231]
;WL[81.788]W[ih]
;B[mg]BL[117.359]
;WL[71.506]W[ng]
;B[me]BL[115.122]
;WL[67.599]W[nd]
;B[qh]BL[112.812]
;WL[66.046]W[ph]
;B[qi]BL[110.269]
;WL[63.674]W[mk]
;B[pk]BL[106.512]
;WL[58.812]W[mp]
;B[lo]BL[103.805]
;WL[57.42]W[np]
;B[op]BL[101.596]
;WL[52.791]W[oq]
;B[no]BL[99.309]
;WL[47.021]W[nr]
;B[mo]BL[96.559]
;WL[43.522]W[ms]
;B[or]BL[94.524]
;WL[37.402]W[ns]
;B[os]BL[90.208]
;WL[36.557]W[ls]
;B[pq]BL[88.376]
;WL[33.477]W[ep]
;B[do]BL[85.736]
;WL[32.25]W[eo]
;B[fk]BL[83.19]
;WL[30.149]W[ik]
;B[gl]BL[81.005]
;WL[29.47]W[gm]
;B[hl]BL[77.839]
;WL[28.762]W[hm]
;B[il]BL[75.875]
;WL[26.989]W[jk]
;B[jl]BL[74.392]
;WL[26.232]W[km]
;B[kl]BL[72.416]
;WL[24.911]W[ll]
;B[fm]BL[69.253]
;WL[21.454]W[im]
;B[el]BL[65.418]
;WL[13.138]W[gh]
;B[ei]BL[62.004]
;WL[11.621]W[hi]
;B[gk]BL[59.099]
;WL[7.095]W[nl]
;B[hj]BL[56.319]
;WL[5.929]W[ij]
;B[hk]BL[54.37]
;WL[4.973]W[kk]
;B[hf]BL[51.662]
;WL[2.761]W[gf]
;B[hg]BL[49.771]
;WL[1.634]W[hh]
;B[jf]BL[47.948]
;WL[20.0]W[sh]OW[5]
;B[si]BL[45.704]
;WL[20.0]W[sg]OW[5]
;B[al]BL[41.651]
;WL[20.0]W[ck]OW[5]
;B[bj]BL[36.211]
;WL[20.0]W[bl]OW[5]
;B[ak]BL[32.189]
;WL[20.0]W[dk]OW[5]
;B[dj]BL[30.427]
;WL[20.0]W[dl]OW[5]
;B[ol]BL[23.651]
;WL[20.0]W[fn]OW[5]
;B[ok]BL[21.224]
;WL[20.0]W[jm]OW[5]
;B[fl]BL[18.684]
;WL[20.0]W[tt]OW[5]
;TB[aa:db][ac:bc][ad:cd][ae:df][ag:bg][ah:di][aj][ao:cq][ar:ds][dc][dg][ej:gj][ke:le][lg][mp:np][oo:so][oq][pr:ss][qk:sk][qp:sq][ri][sj][sl]C[chincharra \[15k?\]\: great game
AnnaLena \[16k\]\: thanks
]B[tt]BL[18.684]TW[cl][fp:hp][gc:hc][gd:ge][gn:io][gq:hq][ha:sb][hr:ir][hs:js][ii:ki][jj:kj][kr][mc:pc][ml][od:pd][oe:sf][og:pg][rc:sd]
)
(
;W[er]
)
)
(
;C[*** More solid.]W[kr]
)
)
(
;B[kr]
(
;W[ir]
;C[*** Cutting off the White stone. But see variation for the previous move.]B[kq]
)
(
;W[kq]
;B[ir]
;W[js]
;B[ks]
;W[jo]
;B[kp]
;W[lo]
;B[is]
;W[jr]
;B[js]
;W[lp]
;B[jr]
;C[*** The Black dumpling is cut off with only 3 liberties to 5.]W[lr]
;B[gr]
;W[fr]
;C[*** Black has gained 2 liberties, but White has the move.]B[hr]
;W[gq]
;B[mr]
;W[ls]
;B[ms]
;W[hq]
;B[mq]
;W[gs]
)
)
)
(
;W[er]
)
(
;W[mr]
)
)
(
;W[gi]
)
)
(
;W[er]
)
(
;W[mr]
)
(
;C[*** This is better locally. ]W[gi]
)
)
(
;W[fb]
;B[fd]
;C[*** White is OK here.]W[gd]
)
)
(
;C[*** Big. Threatens to jump into the corner, maybe killing it.]W[er]
)
(
;C[*** Big. Thretens to jump or slide into the corner. Takes away this point for Black.]W[mr]
)
(
;C[*** Big. Threatens to slide into the corner and protects the side.]W[eb]
)
(
;C[*** Threatens to make a nice center territory and to reduce Black's territory on the side.]W[fh]
)
)
(
;C[*** Enlarges the White framework. Takes away a good play for Black.]W[mg]
;B[li]
;W[jj]
)
)
(
;C[*** The keima starts to make eye shape and takes away a good play for Black. ]W[oj]
)
)
(
;C[*** Now Black has an eyeless group to attack.]W[sm]
)
)
(
;C[*** Attack!]W[oj]
)
)
(
;C[*** Double kakari.]W[nc]
)
(
;C[*** Attacks the weak Black group. Takes away a good play for Black.]W[oj]
))
(
;W[dn]
;B[co]
;C[*** One way.]W[fm]
)
)
(
;C[*** Leaves room for a slide into the corner or a one space extension on the side.]W[cn]
)
)
(
;C[*** Threatens to undercut the Black corner.]W[cm]
(
;C[*** Protects the corner, but inefficient.]B[co]
)
(
;B[dn]
;W[bo]
)
)
)
(
;W[nc]
;B[qf]
;C[*** A common opening for White in a 4 stone game.]W[jd]
)
)
Re: Playing White in Handicap Games
Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:13 pm
by tekesta
You actually played White in the first game pretty well. By move 50 or so you had good chances of winning. You started off playing slow, and you might not have done so well against a different style, but there is little to complain about in terms of giving handicaps. Your worst play in that regard was

, allowing Black to connect his weak group with

. Divide and conquer is a good go motto.
Well, thank you very much

Of course I am still learning the fundamentals, but nevertheless this bit of praise encourages me greatly. I was playing rather slow as White in that game, but I did not want to scare Black into stepping up things. So I played à la Shuusaku. I'll need to improve on the divide and conquer part. I thought all the time that the Black group on the right side in my game against AnnaLena was unkillable. Perhaps by attacking it, instead of aiming to kill it, I would've won the game?
If I were "nekomataya" in that game, how should I play? White was not making much of a mess of things at the beginning, so as Black I was able to increase my influence unmolested.
Re: Playing White in Handicap Games
Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:55 am
by skydyr
tekesta wrote:You actually played White in the first game pretty well. By move 50 or so you had good chances of winning. You started off playing slow, and you might not have done so well against a different style, but there is little to complain about in terms of giving handicaps. Your worst play in that regard was

, allowing Black to connect his weak group with

. Divide and conquer is a good go motto.
Well, thank you very much

Of course I am still learning the fundamentals, but nevertheless this bit of praise encourages me greatly. I was playing rather slow as White in that game, but I did not want to scare Black into stepping up things. So I played à la Shuusaku. I'll need to improve on the divide and conquer part. I thought all the time that the Black group on the right side in my game against AnnaLena was unkillable. Perhaps by attacking it, instead of aiming to kill it, I would've won the game?
If I were "nekomataya" in that game, how should I play? White was not making much of a mess of things at the beginning, so as Black I was able to increase my influence unmolested.
Well, giving a solid strategy for white in a handicap game is difficult, because it presupposes that white is stronger than black and will win by taking advantage of black's mistakes, where the same strategy against a player of white's strength would lose. If black plays perfectly, white should lose every time. I think there are two schools of thoughts on how white should play, though: The first is that white should play calmly and not leave weak groups dangling around as targets and patiently wait for black to make mistakes. The second school is that white should seek to complicate the game in a way that black is uncomfortable handling, since in a complicated fight, white's presumably superior reading should shine through.