Life In 19x19

What do you think are the top ten josekis that beginners should know?

(Please provide diagrams of or links to the josekis.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . 6 . . . . . . 4 . .|
$$ . . . . . 2 . X . 3 .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 5 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . 8 . X 6 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 5 . .|
$$ . . . . . . 4 2 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 3 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 7 . .|[/go]

Taisha... so they know how to avoid it

On a more serious note, I think they should know at least one 5-4, 5-3, 3-3, and a bunch of 3-4, and 4-4 josekis.

For 5-4: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pepcndqeqfqdpfnb
For 5-3: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qepcnd ... qbrcmdnejc
For 3-3: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qcpdqdpeobmdrfph (old pattern but still worth to study)

4-4: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfncrdqcqi

Maybe also talk about posibility of pincer after the question of being able to go into the corner like: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfncrdqg
No need to go into all the variations though.

Maybe also go into one easy pincer: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:pdqfqhqcqdpcodrdrercqe

There you can explain why the hane is bad.

About 3-4, I'm not so sure, there are so many ...

There is this one where I learned a lot from: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qdodoc ... pdpeoendof


Cheers,
Otenki

Maybe take a look at Pieter Mioch's Gentle Joseki ideas.

One thing I find interesting is that the BadukTV videos for 5kyu and 3kyu only feature the nirensei vs. nirensei opening. This is a really simplifying assumption, but I don't know if it's common in Korean instruction. I suppose there is some logic to it in the context of club play where one assumes they'll be playing a lot of handicap games.

In that case, the emphasis should be on 4-4 josekis. Another way to restrict repertoire is to:

1) Never play anything but 4-4 in an empty corner.
2) Choose approaches to 3-4, 5-3, and 5-4 that have fewer variations. For example, only the large knight's approach to the 3-4. It is not hard to handle the pincers. For the 5-3, just play the other 5-3. It's a simple way: miai to get the corner and the side: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:qeocqclc and for the 5-4, approach from the outside rather than invade: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:peocqclc and you have to know how to deal with the attachment: http://www.josekipedia.com/#path:peocpcqc

Neither of these suggestions is my idea. I remember 1) from some random 3-4 dan on rec.games.go a long time ago. And 2) comes directly from Michael Redmond's ABCs of Attack and Defense.

But I think it depends on your goal. When limiting to 10, it's not easy. I'd want at least one tenuki joseki, maybe the double knight's approach to the 4-4, just to get the student into the idea that they don't always have to respond.

Ugh. I can't choose just 10. I think I have about 15 here.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . 2 . . 4 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O . 3 .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 5 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . 7 5 . . . .|
$$ . . . . 8 6 4 3 1 a .|
$$ . . . . . . . O 2 9 .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . 0 .|
$$ . . . . . . . . b . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

(Then 'a' and 'b' ). Yeah, I know it's not really joseki, but I presume it comes with advice on when to do choose it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . 2 . . 4 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O . 3 .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 5 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

A good one to teach ladders and nets, and not always taking territory:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . 2 . . 5 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O . 3 .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 6 7 .|
$$ . . . . . . b 8 1 a .|
$$ . . . . . . c 9 0 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Simple 3-4 idea:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . , 2 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Simple 5-3 idea (if white near , black at :w2 to treat corner and side are miai).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 . . 1 . 2 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . , . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . O . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Simple 5-4 idea:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 . . 1 . 2 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . , . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Handle attachment:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . 1 2 3 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . , . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

3-3, far low approach:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . 2 . . O . .|
$$ . . . . . . . , . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

3-3: close low approach:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . 2 . O . .|
$$ . . . . . . . , . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

3-3: close low approach, teach difference between sente and gote with above. (You can also use the one-point jump extension vs. knight's move as in Joaz's example, but I think the idea of finishing a position to get sente vs. accepting open position and taking gote with more territory is a good trade-off to explain early.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 4 . . . . O . .|
$$ . . . . . . 2 , . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 3 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Teaching choice of block of white (part 1):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 4 3 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O 5 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . 6 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 7 .|
$$ . . . . . . 8 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Teaching choice of block of white (part 2). Finish with 'a':

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . a . 5 3 9 .|
$$ . . . . . . 6 O 4 7 .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 0 8 .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Teaching first joseki mistake. A fun one to show. The punishment is left as an exercise.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . 6 5 3 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O 4 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Double approach:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . 3 . . 5 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ . . . . . . 4 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

Maybe you can cut out the 3-3 ones. The move is not that popular and you can just tenuki and see if white can develop. If adding, some of the other 3-3 invasion variations are important, such as handling the white double hane.

I also like this one for teaching pushing battles / importance of getting ahead:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . 5 . 1 . O . .|
$$ . . . . . 3 2 4 . . .|
$$ . . . a 7 6 0 . . . .|
$$ . . . . 8 9 . . . . .|
$$ . . . . b . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

And if I could pick one side joseki, maybe this diagonal haengma to develop out and separate. When I was first shown that this prevents a white connection at 'a', I thought go was so beautiful.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . , . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . O . .|
$$ . . . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . X a . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

I am surprised that no one mentioned the 4-4 cap of sansan.

EdLee wrote:

snorri wrote:...joseki mistake. The punishment...

$$B
$$-----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . 6 5 3 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O 4 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$-----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . 6 5 3 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O 4 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

IMO, it's questionable to use the term "mistake" for -- "variation" may be better.
"The punishment" is also dubious -- both for the term "punishment" and for the definitive "the" --
there are many variations here (some complicated).

Can you give an example? The only variations I can find are all localy bad for the player who haned.

Cheers,
Otenki

otenki wrote:

EdLee wrote:

snorri wrote:...joseki mistake. The punishment...

$$B
$$-----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . 6 5 3 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O 4 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$-----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . 6 5 3 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O 4 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

IMO, it's questionable to use the term "mistake" for -- "variation" may be better.
"The punishment" is also dubious -- both for the term "punishment" and for the definitive "the" --
there are many variations here (some complicated).

Can you give an example? The only variations I can find are all localy bad for the player who haned.

Cheers,
Otenki

I think this can safely be called a mistake, and I've seen and heard it characterized as such by professionals. Unless, of course, you're applying a different definition of "mistake" than is commonly used. Put another way, if this isn't a joseki mistake, I'm curious to know what "real" joseki mistakes are that don't result in groups dying. There are two common ways to "punish" that I know of, the most common (in my experience) being black descending at below. But I like this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$-----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . 5 O X X 3 .|
$$ . . . . . . . O O 1 .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 2 .|
$$ . . . . . . . . X . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . O . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

otenki wrote:

EdLee wrote:

snorri wrote:...joseki mistake. The punishment...

$$B
$$-----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . 6 5 3 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O 4 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$-----------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . 6 5 3 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . O 4 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . 2 . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . . . .|[/go]

IMO, it's questionable to use the term "mistake" for -- "variation" may be better.
"The punishment" is also dubious -- both for the term "punishment" and for the definitive "the" --
there are many variations here (some complicated).

Can you give an example? The only variations I can find are all localy bad for the player who haned.

Cheers,
Otenki

Look at this old thread
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6155

judicata wrote:I think this can safely be called a mistake, and I've seen and heard it characterized as such by professionals.

I've heard the opposite from a pro, that it's questionable to call the hane a mistake, that perhaps "variation" is better.

Takao spent about half a page on the hane. Excerpts:A database search on 50,744 games returned 4 pro games ("rare occasions"; 1986-2007) with the hane,
3 of which played by Cho Chikun 9p, including one very early in the opening (on ).
(Compared to 1,890 games with the joseki extend.)

EdLee wrote:

judicata wrote:I think this can safely be called a mistake, and I've seen and heard it characterized as such by professionals.

I've heard the opposite from a pro, that it's questionable to call the hane a mistake, that perhaps "variation" is better.

I don't doubt you at all. I suspect those pros have a different understanding of the term "mistake." Though it is possible that they have a different judgment about the position (which would be interesting). Of course, almost any normally "bad" move can be a good move in the right situation (as can almost any normally "good" move be a "bad" move in the wrong position). Where to draw the line at "mistake" isn't clear cut, but I question whether the term remains useful if it excludes moves like this. (You could argue that the word "mistake" is never useful, but I don't think that gives people enough credit--rather, players should realize that "mistake" implies "generally" and that, most likely, there are exceptions.)

judicata wrote:

EdLee wrote:

judicata wrote:I think this can safely be called a mistake, and I've seen and heard it characterized as such by professionals.

I've heard the opposite from a pro, that it's questionable to call the hane a mistake, that perhaps "variation" is better.

I don't doubt you at all. I suspect those pros have a different understanding of the term "mistake." Though it is possible that they have a different judgment about the position (which would be interesting). Of course, almost any normally "bad" move can be a good move in the right situation (as can almost any normally "good" move be a "bad" move in the wrong position). Where to draw the line at "mistake" isn't clear cut, but I question whether the term remains useful if it excludes moves like this. (You could argue that the word "mistake" is never useful, but I don't think that gives people enough credit--rather, players should realize that "mistake" implies "generally" and that, most likely, there are exceptions.)

Okay, that example was more deeply controversial than I would have expected, so maybe shouldn't be considered in a short list. Any other favorites for common mistakes? I'm not sure I remember the normal ways of flubbing the 3-3 invasion under 4-4, but I think there are some.