Life In 19x19

some of your attacking stones get surrounded and then are killed easily... is there a particular fundamental weakness in letting this happen (and so being something i could target with study) or is this just a bunch of things leading to bad play?

it is very hard to attack.

Hard to answer such a vague question, but a general principle is to not let your stones get surrounded. Oftentimes attacking is about trying to surround your opponents stones, so if your opponent ends up surrounding you you may have been mistaken about who was the attacker.

well, it would be like, early game, i have some thickness in two spots but my opponent invades so i try to push my opponent towards it or trap him between two somewhat thick lines but then one of those lines gets shut in during the attack.

Again, it's hard to state anything definitively when we're not discussing a real position, but as a general principle you shouldn't be letting your groups get surrounded. It sounds to me like you're attacking the wrong way. Start off by attacking him in one direction, but don't keep pushing in that direction if it results in one of your groups getting surrounded in the process.

cherryhill wrote:just a bunch of things leading to bad play?

Probably -- at these levels, most likely, yes.

Similar to Dusk Eagle's reply: Go is very specific. In some cases, even a single stone
from far away matters (e.g. ladder break). It's mostly unproductive to try to discuss
a vague question like this. We need to see your specific board position(s).

well here is kind of an example of what happens. im white. as soon as black makes r10, i can sense trouble. i play that attachment joseki because i have heard when black doesnt have room to expand from it, you should attack them. and to attack the attachment they make after if they try to. but it seems harder to attack than to play the attachment and cause me to get into trouble because i will be the one under attack and surrounded even though i was supposed to be in a better position. when black plays O9 i feel like one of the groups will get surrounded and he will have successfully counter attacked my attack for enormous profit.

cherryhill wrote:just a bunch of things leading to bad play?

As expected, this.

is terrible -- broken shape for W. You must block at P8.

See toothpaste shape

cherryhill wrote:i play that attachment joseki because i have heard [...], you should [...]

Strategy and execution (techniques) must go hand in hand --
you can have the greatest strategy in the world, but if you cannot execute it because of your techniques,
then it still fails.

Your - exchange is also very bad -- the same broken shape for W, again.

cherryhill wrote:just a bunch of things leading to bad play?

The bunch of things are the basics.
If you post more of your games for review, you'll see the same basics problems again and again --
basic shape problems, basic tesuji problems, basic life-and-death problems, basic contact fight technique problems, etc.

cherryhill wrote:well here is kind of an example of what happens. im white. as soon as black makes r10, i can sense trouble. i play that attachment joseki because i have heard when black doesnt have room to expand from it, you should attack them.

What about the hane from the other side (this side here)? That way you don't let your group get separated.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B alternate, instead of white a
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Hi cherryhill,

There are many issues with the sequence you show, but nothing tremendously major, I think, considering the level of the players (DDK, yes?) Except at the very end, when you invade in 3-3. This is simply conceptually flawed, from what you say. If you have a group running along the board like you do, and you say you see it as weak and are aware that this large running group might be in trouble - why do you start another separate fight right next to it? It can only weaken your running group - since Black will attack your 3-3 stone in the corner and so get stronger to attack your other stones.

Not sure if I make myself sufficiently clear here, but from what you have shown this is the fundamental flaw in your play, not really specific tactical solutions like the toothpaste and stuff. Of course, toothpase is good, as Ed says, but its small potatoes, really - until you first address the big conceptual flaws you show.

So, rule #1 for you:
If you are worried about a group, try to strengthen it. Never try to weaken it by playing so that your opponent will get stronger in the vicinity. In particular, never start another fight which is close by but leads to you creating a separate group.

Study some basic L&D if you are still getting in trouble, this will also help and give you more confidence.

PS>
There are also other issues with your play - like for example how did it happen that you got into such pickle, and how to prevent it. This can be addressed, but I think that at your level you will get into pickle a lot, one way or another, no matter what specific moves and techniques you memorize - there is simply too much that can go wrong from game to game. This is why I try to draw your attention to something which might apply more generally, and give you more universal results.

1. Read correctly.

2. Defend your important unsettled groups.

3. Kill the opponent's important unsettled groups.

The principles, in this order, apply generally and apply to your weaknesses to be corrected immediately in all your games.

RobertJasiek wrote:1. Read correctly.

2. Defend your important unsettled groups.

3. Kill the opponent's important unsettled groups.

The principles, in this order, apply generally and apply to your weaknesses to be corrected immediately in all your games.

All very true.
But better yet, one simple and clear principle is better than 3 less simple and less clear ones, so:

1. Make correct moves.

Apply this single simple principle in your games and I guarantee you will win every time!
That's really all there is to it! Who says Go is a complex game?

Honk if you find this helpful.

Bantari wrote:...the fundamental flaw in your play, not really specific tactical solutions like the toothpaste and stuff.
Of course, toothpase is good [...] but its small potatoes, really - until you first address the big conceptual flaws you show.

I disagree.

Big picture problems, "general", "conceptual" flaws, etc. are good to fix, yes,
but so are all the basic shape problems, basic tactic problems.

Basic shape problems like the toothpaste are not small; they are huge.
It is one reason Kageyama starts out on Chapter 1 with the ladder.
"Don't forget the fundamentals. Our study begins with ladders."

Original poster: My opponent invades and attaches to my stone at R10. How do I handle it?

L19 forum advice: Make correct moves; fix your basic shapes

How is this helpful at all?

xed_over wrote:

cherryhill wrote:well here is kind of an example of what happens. im white. as soon as black makes r10, i can sense trouble. i play that attachment joseki because i have heard when black doesnt have room to expand from it, you should attack them.

What about the hane from the other side (this side here)? That way you don't let your group get separated.

$$B alternate, instead of white a
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B alternate, instead of white a
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I think the game move is correct because this way black simply draws back and white has a cut + less space. Black should be punished for the overplay.

I think should be as below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 5 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black's move 5 in game was quite bad, because:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]