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Damezumari, anyone?

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=9228

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Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:15 pm
by Bill Spight
Here is a nice problem I just ran across. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . X O O . . . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Enjoy!

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:57 pm
by moyoaji
Is this it?
After extending one more black can still win the capturing race against the lower white 3 stones, but he can also capture the 3 on top. If white resists by trying to capture black, black can play this way and threaten to escape. If white insists then he can treat the 3 as a thrown in and kill white like this. White cannot block due to a shortage of liberties and then, after the capture and connecting back playing inside or putting the 3 white stones in atari are miai for killing white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B White failure
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 5 7 |
$$ . . . X O 6 O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 8 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 9 |
$$ . . . . . X O C |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
If white tries to resist like this, black just wins the capturing race. White can make 1 eye, but 1 eye does not a live white group make.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B More failure from white
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 4 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
EDIT: This seems to work and is even easier. White cannot capture 5 anyway; still not enough liberties. Nor can white push to atari black. Black just connects back.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black connects back and white still fails
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 5 . |
$$ . . . X O 6 O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 7 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
EDIT2: Do want to note that white can start a ko. If he has a 40 point threat he might make this solution bad.

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:19 am
by RBerenguel
moyoaji's solution above looks reasonable (I didn't completely read it because I don't want to spoil myself the "real" reading :)) but this in this problem the marked spot gives me feelings. Seems to not work, but anyway..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . X O O x . . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:17 pm
by Bill Spight
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 5 . |
$$ . . . X O 7 O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 6 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Ko is not the answer. Black can kill. :)

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:36 pm
by moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w8: ko threat, :b9: responds
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 5 . |
$$ . . . X O 7 0 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 6 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
If black has no threat how does he respond to this?

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:24 pm
by Splatted
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X a O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O b |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Now a and b are miai right? This feels too simple so I guess I've overlooked something...

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:29 pm
by Bill Spight
moyoaji wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w8: ko threat, :b9: responds
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O 5 . |
$$ . . . X O 7 0 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 6 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
If black has no threat how does he respond to this?
That depends on the rest of the board. Early in the game he should play elsewhere. Later he should just capture the three stones, which will probably be sente.

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:33 pm
by Bill Spight
Splatted wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X a O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O b |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Now a and b are miai right? This feels too simple so I guess I've overlooked something...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 4 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:55 am
by Bill Spight
Well, nobody has found the solution yet, so here are the first two plays. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 . |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
:b1: is obviously a vital point. For one thing, it is where White would play to live.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O . |
$$ . . X O O 3 1 2 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X . |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
If :w2: is this hane, :b3: plainly kills.

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:20 am
by Shaddy
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 7 O 6 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 5 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:59 am
by Bill Spight
@ Shaddy

What next? :)

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:04 pm
by moyoaji
Shaddy wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 7 O 6 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 5 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I had considered that, but this wins for white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm8 Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X 2 O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:14 pm
by Bill Spight
moyoaji wrote:
Shaddy wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 7 O 6 . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 5 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
I had considered that, but this wins for white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm8 Black to play
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X 2 O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Hint:
Try a different :b9: :)

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:17 pm
by SoDesuNe
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 1 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 5 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 6 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm7 Var 1.1 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X X |
$$ . . . X . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . , X 1 2 |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Var 1.2 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O . 1 |
$$ . . X . . O . . |
$$ . . . X . O . O |
$$ . . . . , X O X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 2 - Better play of :w3: , W lives
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 5 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 2.1 - Better play of :w3: , W lives
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O . 9 |
$$ . . X . . O 7 O |
$$ . . . X . O 6 O |
$$ . . . . , X O X |
$$ . . . . . X O 8 |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 8 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ . . . . . X O 7 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 3 O . 2 |
$$ . . . X O . O X |
$$ . . X O O O X O |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: Damezumari, anyone?

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:00 pm
by Bill Spight
SoDesuNe wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 1 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 5 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 6 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 3 |
$$ . . . . . X O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm7 Var 1.1 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X X |
$$ . . . X . O X 3 |
$$ . . . . , X 1 2 |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm10 Var 1.2 - W dies
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O . 1 |
$$ . . X . . O . . |
$$ . . . X . O . O |
$$ . . . . , X O X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 2 - Better play of :w3: , W lives
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O 3 |
$$ . . . X O 1 O X |
$$ . . X O O O X X |
$$ . . X . . O X 5 |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 4 |
$$ . . . . . X O . |
$$ . . . . . X O 2 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Var 2.1 - Better play of :w3: , W lives
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X X O O O |
$$ . . . X O O O . |
$$ . . X O O O . 9 |
$$ . . X . . O 7 O |
$$ . . . X . O 6 O |
$$ . . . . , X O X |
$$ . . . . . X O 8 |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Var 3 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X . O . . |
$$ . . . X O . O 3 |
$$ . . X O O 2 1 8 |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X 4 |
$$ . . . . , X O 5 |
$$ . . . . . X O 6 |
$$ . . . . . X O 7 |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Var 3.1 - W dies?
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . X . X |
$$ . . . . . . X O |
$$ . . . . X X O O |
$$ . . . X 3 O . 2 |
$$ . . . X O . O X |
$$ . . X O O O X O |
$$ . . X . . O X . |
$$ . . . X . O X O |
$$ . . . . , X O 1 |
$$ . . . . . X O O |
$$ . . . . . X O X |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Hint:
Reconsider :b4: in variation 2. :)
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