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8k vs 3k
Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:45 am
by akilotogo
http://files.gokgs.com/games/2013/10/21/suna2002-akilotogo.sgf
Hi there I was wondering if some would be able to point out where I went wrong in this game. I felt that in the early mid game (around move 60) I'd gotten myself into a pretty good position but for a most of the rest of the game I just felt like I was struggling (and ultimately failing) to contain my opponent
Thanks in advance
Re: 8k vs 3k
Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:05 am
by moyoaji
Move 62 was pretty much the do or die moment. You had built an enormous moyo with walls on both sides. All you needed to do was attack the lone white stone and you should win. If you killed it outright your victory would be enormous (and it had nowhere to run, so you probably could have.) However, even if all you could do was run it to the other side of the board it would still give you territory on both sides that should have been more than what white had.
I feel like the key mistake was shoulder hitting the stone. Shoulder hits and direct attachments usually are bad ideas when attacking because they force your opponent to make their stone(s) stronger. Instead, an approach move would have been better. White would then be hard pressed to find a move because there are black stones everywhere and living straight-up in the center is hard.
If you want more on attacking, here is Nick Sibicky's lecture on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ1lJJrSEGE
Re: 8k vs 3k
Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:31 am
by Shinkenjoe
I'd say its move 84 (and move 100 is of the same kind). You try to kill him hard and dont have a plan if he tries to esacpe. Just seal him in, let him live with 2 points (fe N6 at move 84 or P11 at move 100). Adn then take a big point like (at move 100 for example G11 for the middle moyo or O18 strengthening the corner - not securing as its open on the other side).
i get the impression you think of moyos as secure territory to much. A small 10 stone - 2 point group inside your "too big to be secure moyo" is a sucess for you - nor for him.
Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:11 am
by EdLee
Basic shape problems. Tendency to play softly, submissively (backing off from fights, like you are scared).
For your move 100, see
Toothpaste shape
Re: 8k vs 3k
Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:49 am
by schawipp
Just one minor tactical hint: On move 38 you can also connect at D17. If white tries to escape via E19, you can play on the 2-2 point at B18. If w ataris that stone you can extend and w cannot immediately approach (that works from both directions). You would get at least the white B17 stones. The 2-2 point often works surprisingly well when trying to kill a corner group...
Re: 8k vs 3k
Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:47 am
by jts
From 100 on you can wedge and cut at N5. I haven't looked very seriously at the game so I can't tell you at what points this wedge would have been a good move and at what points it was a bad move, but 172 lost a lot of points. This is a classic example of a "raw peep" - as the proverb says, don't peep where you can cut.
Re: 8k vs 3k
Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:35 am
by Bill Spight
A few more comments.
(;FF[4]SZ[19]AP[GOWrite:2.2.21]GM[1]CA[UTF-8]ST[2]HA[5]AB[dd][jj][dp][pp][pd]PW[suna2002]PM[0]RU[Japanese]BR[8k]KM[0.5]PB[akilotogo]GN[ ]WR[3k]C[akilotogo \[8k\]\: hi there
]FG[259:]DT[2013-10-21]OT[5x30 byo-yomi]RE[W+26.50]TM[1500.0]PC[The KGS Go Server at http\://www.gokgs.com/]
;WL[1495.409]W[jd]
;BL[1493.875]B[dj]
;WL[1489.462]W[jp]
;BL[1488.774]B[pj]
;WL[1484.067]W[cm]
(
;BL[1485.01]B[co]C[*** See variation.]
;WL[1476.536]W[bj]
;BL[1481.933]B[ci]
;WL[1452.51]W[qm]
;BL[1473.797]B[mq]
;WL[1442.885]W[rp]
;BL[1472.413]B[qq]
;WL[1436.732]W[rj]
(
;BL[1470.221]B[qi]C[*** This play does not attack the White group, which is alive as is. Nor does it make territory. See variation.]
;WL[1426.427]W[nc]
(
;BL[1467.687]B[oc]C[*** Strengthens White needlessly. See variation.]
;WL[1422.64]W[nd]
;BL[1465.512]B[pf]
;WL[1417.159]W[fc]
;BL[1463.76]B[ec]
;WL[1414.55]W[fd]
;BL[1461.601]B[df]C[*** Black had not played the diagonal attachments, he would threaten to invade the top side.]
;WL[1406.045]W[bi]
;BL[1459.841]B[bh]
;WL[1390.26]W[cd]
;BL[1455.232]B[cc]
;WL[1378.004]W[ce]
;BL[1442.153]B[cf]
;WL[1373.811]W[bc]
;BL[1434.08]B[de]
;WL[1361.74]W[cb]
;BL[1428.519]B[eb]C[*** As Ed says, make the ko.]
;WL[1346.466]W[fb]
;BL[1408.575]B[be]
;WL[1341.506]W[bd]
;BL[1406.885]B[af]
;WL[1336.49]W[db]
;BL[1396.196]B[ea]
;WL[1331.81]W[dc]
;BL[1394.299]B[ed]C[*** Small. White is alive on both sides. All you are doing is saving three stones. Small.]
;WL[1318.876]W[fa]
;BL[1386.801]B[ck]
;WL[1312.748]W[bk]
;BL[1385.169]B[cl]
;WL[1309.5]W[bl]
;BL[1379.478]B[dm]
;WL[1304.302]W[cn]
;BL[1378.5]B[dn]
;WL[1296.984]W[bn]
;BL[1361.573]B[bo]
;WL[1290.511]C[*** This is a good exchange for Black.]W[am]
;BL[1355.874]B[qo]
;WL[1283.416]W[ro]
;BL[1353.88]B[qn]
;WL[1277.795]W[rn]
;BL[1352.884]B[qk]
;WL[1272.239]W[rk]
;BL[1352.089]B[ql]
;WL[1265.714]W[rl]
;BL[1350.997]B[pm]
;WL[1260.236]C[*** Nice for Black. White is low.]W[rm]
(
;BL[1349.353]B[iq]C[*** As moyoaji says, this play is too close. It strengthens White needlessly. See variation.]
;WL[1251.551]W[jq]
;BL[1340.238]B[ip]
;WL[1245.186]W[io]
;BL[1335.034]B[jo]C[*** Good fighting spirit!]
;WL[1241.054]W[ir]
;BL[1318.622]B[gq]C[*** As Ed says, play the hane on the second line.]
;WL[1232.896]W[ho]
;BL[1312.77]B[gp]
;WL[1225.299]W[lp]
;BL[1299.917]B[ko]C[*** Good.]
;WL[1217.216]W[mp]
;BL[1297.814]B[nq]
;WL[1209.586]W[lq]
;BL[1274.947]B[kp]C[*** As Ed says, this weakens your stones unnecessarily.]
;WL[1205.039]W[kq]
;BL[1273.117]B[lr]
;WL[1201.404]W[kr]
;BL[1272.318]B[mr]
;WL[1197.681]W[hr]
;BL[1270.712]B[gr]
;WL[1193.942]W[js]
;BL[1268.672]B[hs]
;WL[1184.207]W[jm]
;BL[1266.473]B[ln]
;WL[1177.701]W[mn]
;BL[1254.492]B[lm]
;WL[1174.218]W[mm]
;BL[1248.245]B[ll]
;WL[1167.152]W[ml]
(
;BL[1247.23]B[mk]C[*** Good fighting spirit, but it leaves a cut behind. Your plan is to attack the group on the right and take big territory on the left. See variation.]
;WL[1162.685]W[ol]
(
;BL[1245.23]B[pl]C[*** Keep calm. Yes, the cut would be sente, but, as Ed says, you can keep White contained. See variations.]
;WL[1157.301]W[nk]
;BL[1235.573]B[mj]
;WL[1153.548]W[nj]
(
;BL[1233.965]B[ni]C[*** Two cutting points make things difficult. See variation.]
;WL[1145.874]W[oj]
(
;BL[1226.471]B[om]C[*** As everybody says, very bad. Keep White confined. See variation.]
;WL[1139.895]W[oi]
;BL[1223.495]B[nh]
;WL[1118.998]C[*** Nice.]W[qh]
(
;BL[1193.583]B[ph]C[*** Good if it works. But it doesn't. See variation. End of comments.]
;WL[1111.389]W[oh]
;BL[1171.207]B[pi]
;WL[1102.733]W[og]
;BL[1137.343]B[ri]
;WL[1089.943]W[lk]
;BL[1130.076]B[kk]
;WL[1083.641]W[lj]
;BL[1124.769]B[li]
;WL[1075.306]W[mi]
;BL[1117.311]B[km]
;WL[1064.244]W[jl]
;BL[1113.989]B[kl]
;WL[1046.071]W[fl]
;BL[1109.21]B[el]
;WL[1031.682]W[hj]
;BL[1092.59]B[ii]
;WL[1022.253]W[jk]
;BL[1091.057]B[kj]
;WL[1017.168]W[hi]
;BL[1087.197]B[mh]
;WL[1009.612]W[mj]
;BL[1083.857]B[kh]
;WL[988.158]W[fn]
;BL[1080.59]B[rq]
;WL[972.986]W[sp]
;BL[1074.737]B[sq]
;WL[965.591]W[sj]
;BL[1071.611]B[si]
;WL[958.109]W[pg]
;BL[1069.645]B[qg]
;WL[953.858]W[qf]
;BL[1062.599]B[rg]
;WL[946.727]W[qe]
;BL[1060.784]B[qd]
;WL[943.82]W[pe]
;BL[1052.786]B[nf]
;WL[938.722]W[of]
;BL[1048.068]B[me]
;WL[930.895]W[ob]
;BL[1046.069]B[pb]
;WL[927.733]W[od]
;BL[1041.287]B[rd]
;WL[923.953]W[pc]
;BL[1036.983]B[qc]
;WL[914.4]W[re]
;BL[988.896]B[rb]
;WL[900.008]W[lg]
;BL[979.215]B[lh]
;WL[889.095]W[lf]
;BL[970.935]B[hh]
;WL[881.622]W[ng]
;BL[962.942]B[kf]
;WL[873.854]W[ke]
;BL[960.83]B[kg]
;WL[866.062]W[jf]
;BL[956.181]B[jg]
;WL[860.887]W[fj]
;BL[951.069]B[if]
;WL[856.263]W[je]
;BL[943.395]B[go]
;WL[853.017]W[gn]
;BL[934.546]B[ie]
;WL[841.515]W[id]
;BL[908.919]B[mg]
;WL[826.797]W[le]
;BL[907.637]B[mf]
;WL[821.495]W[md]
;BL[858.888]B[no]
;WL[802.179]W[mo]
;BL[850.605]B[qa]
;WL[781.031]W[gh]
;BL[842.359]B[hg]
;WL[774.228]W[ek]
;BL[819.466]B[dl]
;WL[698.057]W[cj]
;BL[813.532]B[di]
;WL[692.639]W[dk]
;BL[811.957]B[ej]
;WL[689.068]W[fk]
;BL[806.206]B[fi]
;WL[682.809]W[gi]
;BL[803.424]B[fh]
;WL[667.974]W[ge]
;BL[768.193]B[he]
;WL[657.045]W[hd]
;BL[764.166]B[gf]
;WL[650.702]W[ff]
;BL[754.478]B[fg]
;WL[640.334]W[gg]
;BL[712.07]B[hf]
;WL[624.038]W[bg]
;BL[694.5]B[cg]
;WL[617.576]W[ah]
;BL[690.73]B[ch]
;WL[606.145]W[ag]
;BL[681.287]B[bf]
;WL[601.347]W[ai]
;BL[673.98]B[ef]
;WL[595.5]W[fe]
;BL[673.201]B[eh]
;WL[587.134]W[eo]
;BL[670.926]B[do]
;WL[583.015]W[ep]
;BL[669.756]B[eq]
;WL[558.713]W[cq]
;BL[657.793]B[bq]
;WL[523.461]W[dq]
;BL[647.917]B[er]
;WL[517.574]W[br]
;BL[629.273]B[ar]
;WL[505.242]W[bp]
;BL[522.163]B[ap]
;WL[497.385]W[aq]
;BL[516.493]B[en]
;WL[445.327]W[ao]
;BL[513.237]B[fo]
;WL[434.781]W[dr]
;BL[482.851]B[ij]
;WL[427.214]W[hk]
;BL[480.795]B[ik]
;WL[423.414]W[il]
;BL[472.994]B[jn]
;WL[383.143]W[in]
;BL[440.112]B[hl]
;WL[379.2]W[im]
;BL[438.669]B[gk]
;WL[361.642]W[gj]
;BL[436.628]B[gl]
;WL[343.451]W[fm]
;BL[369.704]B[np]
;WL[316.133]W[lo]
;BL[367.317]B[kn]
;WL[290.872]W[fs]
;BL[353.087]B[es]
;WL[283.877]W[gs]
;BL[345.626]B[fr]
;WL[277.147]W[gs]
;BL[337.876]B[fp]
;WL[255.705]W[oc]
;BL[336.39]B[ih]
;WL[235.783]W[oa]
;BL[333.776]B[pa]
;WL[223.413]W[nn]
;BL[331.953]B[on]
;WL[211.387]W[ls]
;BL[330.394]B[ms]
;WL[207.321]W[ks]
;BL[320.124]B[da]
;WL[201.486]W[ca]
;BL[316.844]B[ds]
;WL[195.38]W[cs]
;BL[315.773]B[fs]
;WL[185.539]W[nm]
;BL[292.677]B[pk]
;WL[178.499]W[ok]
;BL[278.629]B[ad]
;WL[168.93]W[ac]
;BL[277.147]B[ae]
;WL[163.418]W[hm]
;BL[267.402]B[se]
;WL[138.355]W[sf]
;BL[262.087]B[sd]
;WL[125.532]W[sg]
;BL[258.206]B[sh]
;WL[121.236]W[rf]
;BL[256.868]B[rh]
;WL[118.477]W[ne]
;BL[245.259]B[qp]
;WL[107.654]W[is]
;BL[242.137]B[gs]
;WL[97.438]W[cp]
;BL[234.64]B[hp]
;WL[97.437]W[tt]
;BL[234.638]TB[dg:eg][dh][ei][eo:ep][fq][ig][jh][ji:ki][nr:ss][oo:po][op][oq:pq][pn][qb][qh][ra:sa][rc:sc][sb]B[tt]TW[aa:bb][aj:al][an][ap][ar][as:bs][bm][bq][cc][cr][ga:nb][gc:mc][gd][gk][gl:hl][gm][hn][jr][kd:ld][mk][nl][oe][pf][sk:so]C[akilotogo \[8k\]\: thanks for the game
]
)
(
;B[oh]C[*** Threatening to cut off and kill White.]
;W[pi]
;B[ph]C[*** Now the Black stones in the top right are connected and OK.]
;W[qj]
;B[jf]C[*** Black has a commanding lead.]
)
)
(
;B[oi]C[*** Can White live?]
;
)
)
(
;B[mi]C[*** Black has a commanding lead.]
)
)
(
;B[nk]C[*** Contains White. Assume that White lives. In gote, of course. Then let Black jump to K-13 or K-14.]
)
(
;B[no]C[*** This peep is nice.]
(
;W[nk]
;B[mj]
(
;W[nj]
;B[mi]
(
;W[ni]
;B[mo]
)
(
;W[mo]
;B[ni]
)
)
(
;W[mo]
;B[nj]
)
)
(
;W[mo]
;B[nk]
)
)
)
(
;B[lk]C[*** Now you should have no worries. White still has not made a second eye for the group on the right, and the White group in the center should be dead. It does not even have one eye yet, let alone two.]
)
)
(
;B[hp]
)
)
(
;B[pf]
)
)
(
;B[hp]C[*** Attacks the stone on the bottom side and the White group on the left side.]
)
)
(
;B[gp]C[*** This play attacks both the approach stone and the stone on the bottom side. Look for plays that do more than one thing.]
)
)
Main points:
1) Sealing off an opposing group is usually good strategy.
2) Do not strengthen your opponent needlessly.
3) Do not weaken yourself needlessly.
Re: 8k vs 3k
Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:32 am
by akilotogo
Wow, thanks very much for all the comments! That's certainly given me plenty to think about, it looks like I have a few bad habits I need to work on.
Now that's its been pointed out to me it seems obvious that I should have sealed the white group in when I had the chance rather than squeezing it across the board. Sadly I was oblivious to this idea when I was playing.
Thanks again
Re: 8k vs 3k
Posted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:02 pm
by Pippen
Move 10 (large knight) is too soft in this situation when you are strong or OK around. Play a small knight and you will come out in sente or even better: kick with R5 or Q6. Remember in general: Be aware that a large knight shimari from an hoshi enables your opponent still to invade at the 3-3 with sente. Usually one plays that move in a "light" purpose to emphasize the side while not caring about the corner.