Life In 19x19

I've been wondering about KGS and it's current state of developement for a while, it's a relict. The client, the website and pretty much everything else except a few features like ingame commentating. Then there are bugs that never seem to get fixed like the missing stone sound or the instability of the client. There's no alternative KGS client so it's kinda like being stuck in the 90s. Hell, the whole online go community is so dusty, it's no suprise go doesn't catch the attention of new players. Just being involved with go online makes you feel like you surf the early internet of the 90s. But that's kinda off topic, sorry. The point is, KGS is old and it sure feels old, so what's up with that? I luv my kgs and want to see it develope

KGS is basically a one person project. So it really depends on whether wms (the author and a forum member here) wants to spend his free time on KGS or not.

Personally I wish something could be done at least for the sound problem (I have a work-around for that but it's hard to recommend KGS to new go players with the stone sound missing). It doesn't seem like it would take much work to fix but I also understand what it can be like to lose one's motivation to work on such hobby projects as that has happened to me before.

I have heard rumors of a new html5 version in the works but I have no idea how far along that is...

Considering that the stone sound bug is very serious, obviously easy to fix (since all the other sounds work fine), and hasn't been fixed in years, yeah, KGS development is dead.

If the man in charge is really not interessted in continuing he or she might as well pass the torch. I believe there are many people that would put their heart into this server.

Ryuukun wrote:If the man in charge is really not interessted in continuing he or she might as well pass the torch. I believe there are many people that would put their heart into this server.

You are welcome to believe that, but in fact WMS has shown vastly more long-term interest in developing his server than any other developer has. There has been big talk about how awful KGS is for nearly a decade now (you used to be able to go into Sensei's Library and look at the fevered discussion of the "Universal Go Server", which was apparently the Kaya of the '00s), but during all that time no one else has ever followed through on the promise to make something as good, let alone better. We now also have at least one example of someone (Topazg) who created an excellent turn-based go server and handed it over to someone who promised to "put his heart into" further development, only to shut it down and hand the users over to a server which lacks features the original OGS had had for years.

I don't actually use KGS's new features, but it does seem that every few months something new comes along - mostly improvements in the way the Android client works. I don't have a smartphone so I don't care, but for a man with a job, kids, and a go server to run pro bono, it seems like he makes steady progress. It makes me sad that people find it so easy to fawn and slobber over saltimbanques like the Kaya admins but are always so sharp with WMS.

I was not aware of the sound problem. I found it so annoying that I turned it off as soon as it was implementd.

But beyond that I cannot see what the complaints are about. KGS has the best interface I have seen on any go server. It is simple to use and all the information which is needed it right there. I logged on to OGS this week as a result of another thread here and found it to be a very unappealing interface and was shocked that they could not improve on KGS, which has been around for 12 years.

To me, KGS is smooth to use and OGS is fragmented, as was IGS last time I tried it (many years ago). Maybe it is because I am not yet comfortable with the OGS interface, but if something is more difficult to use than KGS then I am not likely to spend much time on it. I don't play online often enough to expend the energy learning.

DrStraw wrote:I was not aware of the sound problem. I found it so annoying that I turned it off as soon as it was implementd.

But beyond that I cannot see what the complaints are about. KGS has the best interface I have seen on any go server. It is simple to use and all the information which is needed it right there. I logged on to OGS this week as a result of another thread here and found it to be a very unappealing interface and was shocked that they could not improve on KGS, which has been around for 12 years.

To me, KGS is smooth to use and OGS is fragmented, as was IGS last time I tried it (many years ago). Maybe it is because I am not yet comfortable with the OGS interface, but if something is more difficult to use than KGS then I am not likely to spend much time on it. I don't play online often enough to expend the energy learning.

As far as I know, you can't access the old OGS interface anymore, since it was merged with Nova last week. I'm not sure when you looked, but I found it fairly intuitive.

skydyr wrote:

DrStraw wrote:I was not aware of the sound problem. I found it so annoying that I turned it off as soon as it was implementd.

But beyond that I cannot see what the complaints are about. KGS has the best interface I have seen on any go server. It is simple to use and all the information which is needed it right there. I logged on to OGS this week as a result of another thread here and found it to be a very unappealing interface and was shocked that they could not improve on KGS, which has been around for 12 years.

To me, KGS is smooth to use and OGS is fragmented, as was IGS last time I tried it (many years ago). Maybe it is because I am not yet comfortable with the OGS interface, but if something is more difficult to use than KGS then I am not likely to spend much time on it. I don't play online often enough to expend the energy learning.

As far as I know, you can't access the old OGS interface anymore, since it was merged with Nova last week. I'm not sure when you looked, but I found it fairly intuitive.

Right. DrStraw, you may not be au courant, I realize a lot of the discussion in the "The New OGS" thread has been confusing. Just to make sure we're all on the same page:

- The Online Go Server (OGS) is a turn-based go server which has existed since before I started playing go. It looked like this (screenshot from the AGA website): http://www.usgo.org/news/wp-content/upl ... nshot3.jpg -- It had decent graphic design, was compatible with mobile devices, and was built to be useful for reviewing, analyzing, and commenting games. (The player Uberdude, in particular, put a lot of work into making insightful comments on his games.)

- Nova.gs (Nova) was a new server with the goal of offering both real-time and turn-based games inside a browser window. This is the server with the deep love of white space, the "available games graph", etc. A few people started playing turn-based games on it but it didn't attract a following.

- Then the current admin of OGS decided to give the domain and the user base to Nova. The new combined site is based at www.online-go.com but it has the same appearance, organization, etc. that Nova.gs had until two days ago.

Does that make what happened more clear? Or am I talking in circles?

KGS is nice as it is, don't get me wrong, I like KGS alot, but it can be improved upon drastically as it is pretty dated already.

When I first started go I was looking for online servers of course and when I found KGS I wasn't even sure that thing was online anymore. It looked like leftovers from the Internet 1.0 that have been forgotten. Turned out it hadn't, turned out people here live under the rule of, "don't fix what isn't broken" which is fine. But I think the troubling part is the the whole dusty image of go is really not appealing for new players and thus this community is struggeling to grow a bigger playerbase. Sure more and more people play go in western countries year after year but as Terry Benson once said "What we need most, what Go needs most, are beginners. We want two million 25-kyus.". I think this is very true and especially the internet plays a huge role in the future of go. Appealing and modern software is more likely to attract more players and hold them. We all would profit from more players wouldn't we? At least I think so and I would love to see this game flourish in the future.

Ryuukun wrote:KGS is nice as it is, don't get me wrong, I like KGS alot, but it can be improved upon drastically as it is pretty dated already.

When I first started go I was looking for online servers of course and when I found KGS I wasn't even sure that thing was online anymore. It looked like leftovers from the Internet 1.0 that have been forgotten. Turned out it hadn't, turned out people here live under the rule of, "don't fix what isn't broken" which is fine. But I think the troubling part is the the whole dusty image of go is really not appealing for new players and thus this community is struggeling to grow a bigger playerbase. Sure more and more people play go in western countries year after year but as Terry Benson once said "What we need most, what Go needs most, are beginners. We want two million 25-kyus.". I think this is very true and especially the internet plays a huge role in the future of go. Appealing and modern software is more likely to attract more players and hold them. We all would profit from more players wouldn't we? At least I think so and I would love to see this game flourish in the future.

Okay, you are bashing KGS without complaining about anything specific. What exactly is wrong with it? Details please. Just saying it is dated is meaningless without saying why you think so. It certainly is not to me. I are tired of visiting websites which always feel the need to make their users relearn how to use the site every year or so.

For those intersted by the html5 version : https://plus.google.com/u/0/108736506961432085848

Oberon wrote:For those intersted by the html5 version : https://plus.google.com/u/0/108736506961432085848

Google! No thanks. Don't you have an alternative link?

DrStraw wrote:

Oberon wrote:For those intersted by the html5 version : https://plus.google.com/u/0/108736506961432085848

Google! No thanks. Don't you have an alternative link?

Oh. My. God.

<facepalm>

This is “just” WMS’ Google+ page—publicly viewable, no login necessary—for blogging about his progress on KGS HTML5 development.

But never mind, I’m just as paranoid as you, and “they” are after us anyway


Greetings, Tom

KGS development is just slow, as is evidenced by the google+ blog of wms.

Ryuukun wrote:I've been wondering about KGS and it's current state of developement for a while, it's a relict. The client, the website and pretty much everything else except a few features like ingame commentating. Then there are bugs that never seem to get fixed like the missing stone sound or the instability of the client. There's no alternative KGS client so it's kinda like being stuck in the 90s. Hell, the whole online go community is so dusty, it's no suprise go doesn't catch the attention of new players. Just being involved with go online makes you feel like you surf the early internet of the 90s. But that's kinda off topic, sorry. The point is, KGS is old and it sure feels old, so what's up with that? I luv my kgs and want to see it develope

The answer to the title is yes, KGS is dead.
With all the talk in this topic I need to ask: have you checked OGS (old nova)? It has every feature KGS has (and more), the number of online users at any point is always over 300 and it has features added weekly. There are a few people complaining because they would like the new server to be exactly like KGS (or exactly like old-OGS) but that is obviously impossible. Play a couple of games there and see what you think.