Life In 19x19

This might become a caustic thread, but we'll see what happens.

I spent most of my beginning go experience with self study with limited results (i'm now preaching the benefits of getting a teacher).

-BUT-

I'm curious how far people have gotten with self study and what it consisted of to get them there.

For me I got to about AGA 1k/1d with self study in maybe about 8-9 years. It consisted mostly of playing games at the go club and tons of frustration. I tried books and life and death problems but they never really got me anywhere useful. There were also people in the club or others i met who helped out and gave advice, but nothing on the level of a consistent teacher.

Isn't a very high percentage of an active pro's (insei/kenkyuusei) schedule something we would call "self study"?
I heard you have to do a lot of life and death as well as study pro games, most of it basically in solitude.

So even if teachers may be great, they would never be a substitute for self study.

I tried [...] life and death problems but they never really got me anywhere useful.

Maybe you did them wrong? Not consistently throughout a period of time?

I firmly believe l&d to be one of the (if not *the*) main factor(s) in go strength (like conditioning training for boxers, without it you'll just get pummeled to death, no matter how good your "theory" is).

I made it to mid-dan without a teacher. After that I didn't have much time to study or play. For me it consisted of playing games, studying problems & books, being inspired by professional games, analyzing my games, and a mature learning mindset.

In addition to mastering the fundamentals, I think it's imperative to play games against stronger players -- where you are challenged to sharpen and exceed your skills.

In addition to the desire to improve, you should cultivate an intrapersonal desire to win games. If you lose a game and feel apathetic or try to convince yourself that it 'doesn't really matter,' then you're going to have a difficult time improving. If you invest yourself in the outcome, then you'll find your reading sharper, concentration better, and private analysis of your games more fruitful.

I think people should measure effort in games, rather than in years. For example, between KGS and my local clubs I had completed around 650 games when I reached 1d on KGS. (Technically I reached 2d first, and then advanced towards the rear.) I fully expect that over the next 650 games my appreciation for the game will continue to evolve.

I don't think years are very informative. Would you want the number of years since I learned the rules? Since I became a "go player"? The fraction of that period during which I was playing regularly? The fraction of that period during which I was actively studying go books and doing problems with the intention of getting stronger? -- A longer period of study could easily mean less improvement, if we're talking about the same number of games. If a 20k played 60 (thoughtful) games in one month, I would expect him to reach 10k, but if he played a game a month for five years, I wouldn't be surprised if he were still at 20k at the end of the fifth year.

Of course, I don't know where you draw the line between self-study and group-study or teaching. I assume you're talking about professional players. Stronger amateurs were always very generous with their time.

Made it to 5d without a *formal* teacher.
But I would not go as far as to call it 'self study'. Countless hours spent playing, analyzing with friends, talking about joseki/fuseki patterns or books, wondering about pro moves and games, exchanging ideas, trying out new things - most of it together with others, helping and supporting. 'Self study' sounds like you lock yourself in a small cell and read books - and I never did that. Well, maybe sometimes, in the bathroom... but it does not count.

What do you mean by "self study"? No formal teacher? No discussions with anyone else? No game reviews with the opponent? Everyone studies and a lot of that study is alone. Most people discuss games with other people.

If you mean never having had a formal teacher, never had a game reviewed for you on a formal basis, then that covers most people up to at least mid-dan. I have never had either and I topped out at close to AGA 6d. But I have had countless informal game reviews after the game by my opponents when I was playing black and moving through the kyu ranks, and I have had loads of mutual games reviews by between me and my opponent when I was moving through the dan ranks,

DrStraw wrote:What do you mean by "self study"?

Pretty much not having a teacher or some sort of "formal eduation" like a go school type thing.

I'm mostly curious just because the majority here seem to practice it rather than using a teacher.

Also, I added a time unit just as extra information for my experience. I'm more curious what most peoples regimens were to get stronger by "themselves".

I got nowhere with self study. (Well, I learned how to play by myself, which some people don't manage. )

I was fortunate enough to learn in Japan, where pretty much every game was a teaching game. That is, it was customary to go over the game afterwards.

Bantari wrote:Well, maybe sometimes, in the bathroom... but it does not count.

What do you do when you drop your tsumego book in the toilet? Dilemma!

Bill Spight wrote: What do you do when you drop your tsumego book in the toilet? Dilemma!

Damezumari!

I don't think self-study makes much sense as a term in the context of go. I think the presence, or lack thereof, of strong/stronger players to play and discuss go with will have have far more of an impact that what study techniques you use or whether you hire a teacher. 99% of the application of your learning will come from your games after all and if you're a 1d who only has 20 kyus to play with it's going to be a slow process.

I'm also very interested in people's starting Go age. So far, nobody has mentioned it.
Maybe it's a good polling opportunity, or a new thread.

Starting Go before 25, with very good teachers, and making it to high dan in 10 years -- that's very nice.
Starting Go after 40, in any training methods whatsoever, and reaching high dan before death -- that's tremendous.

I started Go relatively late (for me), in my mid-30's.

Age is a crucial factor in Go whenever we discuss improvement over time ("X level in Y amount of time".)
If either duration or target level is not a factor, then, no problem,
everybody can still improve, at any age.

Wasn't there a recent thread, within the past few years, about
a Japanese lady who was over 80 years old when she made 3-dan in Japan ? Very nice.

If you say, "I reached X level in Y amount of time," how old were you when you started ?
15 years old versus 40 years old makes a difference:
time -- more specifically, the brain -- is not the same for the two ages.

Also, I added a time unit just as extra information for my experience.

I don't consider time and age to be extra information. I consider them intrinsic and crucial in these discussions.

I started in my mid 40's have been playing for 6 years, have played tons of games and am pretty pleased at having broken past the 5k barrier - which took me about a year. I've never had a teacher, and haven't had much intensive go contact with strong players. I don't know what exactly to attribute my slow progress to, but it's probably a combination of the above.

I started at 21 - 40 years ago this month. In those days very few people started before they went to university because no one had heard of it. These days people start in their teens or earlier and can reach the high dans much more easily. Reaching 5 dan now is probably as common as reaching 1 dan was when I started.

jts wrote:I think people should measure effort in games, rather than in years.

I'm not sure that's really much better. For example, take somebody who plays exactly one game per week but never stops studying and compare it to somebody who once a year goes on a KGS binge and plays 50 games over 1-2 weeks and then completely forgets about go until the next year.

I'm not sure the results are going to be the same after a few years.