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Largest area, a or b ?

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=9530

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Largest area, a or b ?

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:08 am
by Shenoute
I've recently been introduced to the idea of playing first in largest open spaces during the fuseki and tried to apply this in my games. So here is a game I played recently and I'd like to make sure I'm getting the idea more or less right and applying it correctly.

Black just played J3, which move do you think is better, a or b (forgetting for the moment that another move might be the best choice) ? Before I would have played b without much thinking, after all black is approaching so I must stop him and put pressure on the J3 stone, no ?

But the play-in-larger-spaces-first made me consider a (which I played) because there is much space on the side than at the bottom, plus it has a nice follow-up at D10, while b leaves the side open and doesn't have much room for future developpement ?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------------------------[/go]
So, I had the feeling then of having some kind of small-scale epiphany but looking at the board now I'm not sure b wouldn't have been as good (or as bad).

edit. Misplaced stone in the diagram.

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:27 am
by EdLee
Hi Shenoute, may I ask what are the (approx.) levels of the two players in the game?

It's a good question. :)
Shenoute wrote:...I'd like to make sure I'm getting the idea more or less right and applying it correctly.
This may be the first problem with your thinking. You seem to be thinking in binary terms:
either "you are getting the idea more or less right" or not.
Go is not like this. Understanding is (often) not like this (in some cases, yes).
Understanding is (often) not binary: not a case of either "you understand it" or not.
Rather, it's a continuum, with infinite levels.

For example, about this idea of "playing in the largest area in the opening," --
~20k people have ~20k understanding of this idea;
~10k people have ~10k understanding of this idea;
~5k people have ~5k understanding of this idea;
~1d people have ~1d understanding of this idea;
~4d people have ~4d understanding of this idea;
~pro level people have ~pro level understanding of this idea.

At this time, you have your current level of understanding of this.

Later, if you get 5 stones better, you may have another level of understanding of this.
Shenoute wrote:(forgetting for the moment that another move might be the best choice)
Often in Go, we need to look at the big picture. For this board, R3 (the lower right 3-3) looks pretty big to me.
Shenoute wrote:Before I would have played b without much thinking, after all black is approaching so I must stop him and put pressure on the J3 stone, no ?
Not at all. You play a move only if you think it's the best move currently on the board.
If you think blocking B's approach happens to be the best move, then OK, play it;
otherwise, "blocking B's approach and putting pressure on J3" doesn't mean anything in isolation by itself.
For example -- if the board is different -- and right after you "block B's approach and put pressure on J3,"
B plays a move elsewhere and kills your 100-point W group, and B wins, then your "block" is meaningless.

For this board, I don't know whether (a) or (b) is bigger -- to me, they could be miai;
(c) still looks pretty big to me. Also, the shape of the three :bc: stones looks a bit strange --
they feel a bit over-concentrated. On the upper right corner, B's shape also looks a bit odd,
it seems B has some inefficiency there, too.
Moreover, W has to make sure the (d) area does not become too big.
So if I play W, I'd be looking at (c) and (d) areas, and not (a) or (b).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . B , . . . . . , X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . B . . . . . d . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . b . . . X . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$-----------------------------------------[/go]
This is my current level of understanding; I could be completely wrong. :)
Better players will have better understanding of this board.

Re: Largest area, a or b ?

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:50 am
by Shenoute
Thanks a lot for your detailed answer, EdLee. I'll make sure I (re)read it carefully.

I'm 1-2d on KGS but haven't played there a lot in the last few years.

Re: Largest area, a or b ?

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:15 am
by Boidhre
What's the move order there? Do you have an sgf leading up to that point? I'm curious. :) (specifically I'm trying to work out whether Black tenuki'd White's approach at R10 or whether Black played R8 in response to R10?)

Re: Largest area, a or b ?

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:49 am
by Shenoute
Hmm, making me load a sgf file on my first on the forum may not be a good idea :) but I'll try. It was played on Wbaduk so I created a sgf of the first moves (and realised I had misplaced a stone in my first post's diagram).
That sequence in the upper left looks terrible, and losing sente with the r17 sequence doesn't feel great either... I guess my only excuse is that I'm currently trying to play more territorial because my usual fighting/reduce immediatly "style" often leads me to attack a lot (which feels good) but also leaves me short on points when the attack fails.

Re: Largest area, a or b ?

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:26 am
by Boidhre
Thank you. :)

Re: Largest area, a or b ?

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:49 am
by skydyr
I must admit, I really dislike the R17 sequence. I feel like something on the bottom is much bigger, white's group doesn't need it to live, and by firming up black's wall it limits white's options to reduce black's top later.

Re: Largest area, a or b ?

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:05 am
by Dusk Eagle
My preference between the two would be for 'b'. For one, it increases the pressure on the black K3 stone, allowing for potential invasions of black's lower side in the future. You could even consider one space further to the right of 'b' to put more pressure on the black stone. Another reason I prefer 'b' is because when we consider the extension that may be desired after a shimari, with 'a' the extension to K3 or K4 is already blocked by a black stone. With 'b', there is still an extension to C10 or D10 available afterward.

Re: Largest area, a or b ?

Posted: Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:43 am
by Bill Spight
First, at your level I do not think that you will have any trouble applying that idea well. :)


Second, I favor b because it will support an incursion into the bottom right moyo. I do not think that the idea applies to this situation. More important is the follow-up. IOW, what is your plan? You may be aware that pros make fun of amateur plays "where the stone makes the loudest sound." ;)

Third, both plays suck, IMO. Because of your low posture and over-concentration in the top right, you are seriously behind. If you do not do something in the bottom right, how are you going to have a chance? Maybe you should invade, maybe you should reduce, maybe you should extend to H-03 first. But if you play you go your way, I'll go mine, you will lose.

Edit: Black has an extra stone on Q-18, so things aren't quite so bad. You are still playing catch-up, however, and need to play enterprisingly.

Re: Largest area, a or b ?

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:39 am
by Shenoute
Thank you all for you answers and comments !

Re: Largest area, a or b ?

Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:38 am
by DrStraw
I was going to write something along the lines of what Bill wrote, until I read the entire thread. So I will just add the following.

Asking which of two moves is better is the wrong question. It automatically narrows your thinking. Ask, rather, what you are trying to achieve. As Bill points out, you are behind. So what is your goal? I think you will find that neither move fit it. On the left I would prefer the middle star point to the keima. At the bottom I would prefer a larger extension if I were to play there.

As I said, I don't think either are optimal. But, you need to decide what the goal is for playing on each side and THEN decide which side is the better choice. Only after than should you decide the length of the extension.
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