Life In 19x19

Posted: **Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:39 am**

Hi,

I am new to the game. Even though I occasionally enjoy playing online, I do still loose a lot, without knowing why. So for now I still use the application igowin to train the basics. Igowin is much quicker, as you do not need to wait for the opponent to move. Also, you can take as much time as you want to think about the next move, possibly trying several variations or searching online for a good solution without annoying your opponent (Is that cheating though? ^^ ). I finally worked my way up to what igowin claims to be 7 Kyu. Though I am most likely much worse on boards larger than 9x9, as I have not yet played one such game. At the moment I am stuck at 7 Kyu. Even though I think I play reasonably well, I still loose. Maybe you can give me an advice on what I could have done better in this game:

In retrospect, there is no move that I would have made differently. Or at least I cannot say that move would have been better for this reason.

Thanks,
DD

Posted: **Tue Jan 14, 2014 7:51 am**

Are you playing with komi? Komi tends to be fairly large compared to the on the board score on small boards, and whether you have it or not affects how you should be playing more.

Posted: **Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:09 am**

Igowin does not use Komi. First this works for the user, but from level 9 or so, the computer starts with black.

Posted: **Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:30 am**

Well, without komi, white's probably going to have to mix it up and start fighting at some point, because there's no way white should win a peaceful game with the board split in two.

Perhaps attaching at D3 for move 8? White may be able to sacrifice to get a bunch of decent forcing moves, or extend and split black.

Honestly, though, 9x9 games can be hard to review because often the answer to why you lost a game can be 'move 5 isn't a great continuation and put you behind enough to lose' or something similar.

If you're strong enough tactically to play at this level, though, I do recommend trying human opponents and moving to larger boards. 9x9 is a fine game in its own right, but it can have a very different feel from a 19x19 game, where you might deliberately lose a fight in one area in order to take compensation in another.

Posted: **Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:35 am**

Let me tell you first how I met Go first, so you can take me a bit more seriously.

I met go some years back, because I saw this program igowin on my sister's computer and ran it to see what it was.

Pretty soon I was winning and improving, without really understanding what the game was actually about. I started the program before reading the rules of go.

Now I can tell you that you have lost the game by move 4 (according to my reading) but making you understand that is much harder.

In fact, I think your 9x9 days with igowin are over. If you are taking white against igowin, it is time to play actual humans.

And you are not 7k as igowin claims. igowin is shaping your play, you need to get rid of it and discover go for real. You need to go play humans. You don't need to play them on big board, go play them on 9x9 or 13x13.

Posted: **Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:51 am**

It's not that simple a question.

You can't decide about the suitability of computer programs as opponents for the purposes of learning without considering .......

a) The program itself (they are not all the same)
b) The level of play to which the program is set.
c) The adequacy of the hardware being used (since computer crunch power trades with time).

But yes, if you are beating the computer program in its highest setting, time to move on. But the only option isn't human opponents (thought those are good if you can get them). A stronger program and/or stronger hardware are also possibilities.

Remember, our little devices like ipads may be powerful compared to computers of 10-20 years ago and may be perfectly adequate to serve up web data, etc. But they have only a small fraction of the crunch power of a modern desktop/laptop to say nothing of a workstation class machine. At the current state of the art, there are several computer programs capable of playing on 19x19 at a few dan on a workstation class machine (and high amateur dan on 9x9). Easy to get a 19x19 opponent 1 dan or better on the ordinary desktop/laptop.

Posted: **Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:32 pm**

First, maybe it is not a good idea to play White against a bot, at least for now. You are learning and you want the bot to make plays that you can learn from, not plays that you can beat. But from time to time maybe it is not a bad idea. Mostly, though, you should set the level so that you take 2 stones on the 9x9 (winning about half the time).

Second, with perfect play White cannot win without komi. Not that you should play with komi yet, but as White you can lose without doing anything wrong. In this game you failed to give Black any difficulties. Of course you lost, against halfway reasonable play. You might even say that you played better than Black, because with perfect play Black can win by 7 points or so, and only won by 4.

OTOH, Black did not have to play well to win.

I have added some variations and comments.

Posted: **Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:57 am**

Hi, first I would like to say that my situation is really really close to yours...

I play mainly vs igowin on iphone, I would prefer to play versus human, but I mainly play
during my travel time in the train when going to work...

I can beat igowin till 5 kyu on a 9x9 board. to do so, I had to start playing in the center,
at tengen (found a lots of inspiration here : http://gobase.org/9x9/book/).

To me, 9x9 board are just not comparable to wider boards... that said,
I really like both... I even had fun with 3x4 boards (http://senseis.xmp.net/?3x4Problems)

For now, I decided to leave my 9x9 friend to play it's bigger brother, the 13x13 board.

I first encountered hudge difficulties (to be honest, I still encouter lots of difficulties...)
and went back to kyu 23...(igowin ranking)

Playing the 13x13 really highlighted big troubles in my playing.

What helps me is the proverb that said "There is no point in the center"...
as I was really too focused on the center

Now, after I few more games, I got back to 15 kyu, but my playing is diffrent to what
I use to do on the 9x9 (sadly not that much better, but just different, as the game is
diffrent with wider boards...)

For now I'm having more fun with the 13x13 then the 9x9, as I can still have game that
I can play during my travel time, but start to see the challenge of doing a good fuseki.

Once I will get better with 13x13 I will try address "pincers" on the 19x19 but that's
difficult for me right now...

Sorry for talking a lot about me and not "help you" with concret advices...
still wanted to share my experience with you.

Posted: **Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:10 am**

Harry Dresden wrote:Though I am most likely much worse on boards larger than 9x9, as I have not yet played one such game.

Hi Harry, stop playing 9x9.

Switch to bigger boards, such as 13x13, 15x15, 17x17, even 19x19.

(Of course, after you have some experience with the larger boards,
you can always go back to 9x9 occasionally. But, for now,
expand your horizon: experience the bigger boards.

)

Oops, just noticed you haven't visited this forum for over a month, since Jan 17. Hmmm... :-|

Let us know when you come back.

Posted: **Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:37 am**

I regularly got Igowin 9x9 (the free Windows one, I guess almost anyone who has had a Windows machine has played against it someday or other) down to 1k-2d regularly, while I was 12k in KGS (that was a long while ago). Its rank means nothing, and eventually you get to know its quirks. The Igowin engine learns from it, so keeping it down below 2-3k involved some reading, but that was it. 9x9 is fun, but it's way more fun with humans. KGS, OGS, LittleGolem all are good places to play 9x9.

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