Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c b 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Jedos move seems like a done deal... and fwiffo suggested play in the other corner, so I decided why not throw out an interesting move in the other corner... 4-5 openings are foreign to me and 3-5 I seldom see... so what better move to attack the corner with then those rare and interesting 3-5's... i also thought maybe mirroring their 4-5 (a) would be interesting, but I don't like the complications it causes.... the 3-4 at (b) seems small and dangerous.. they say 3-3 at (c) is the safe bet for a corner... but seems very small... and possibly gote.. More than likely we will be going with Jedo's move and finishing the shimari...

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[go]$$Bc a amd b are classic joseki
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . a , . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 b . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------|[/go]

This is joseki? Ok, maybe it is if black really wants to emphasize the lower side while giving up the corner. But we don't have enough on the lower side to make it worth more than the corner. If we had several more stones there, then 3 works like this:

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[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 . O . . |
$$ B B . . . . , . . . |
$$ . ? ? ? ? 1 . 2 . . |
$$ . ? ? ? ? . . . . . |
$$ . ? ? ? ? . . . . . |
$$ --------------------|[/go]

When we don't have the lower side, let's look at the obvious continuation. It's a free corner; white would be a fool not to take it.

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[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------|[/go]

Black can make the obvious 2-space stabilizing move, like this:

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[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . ? ? |
$$ . . 3 . . 1 . 2 ? ? |
$$ . . . ? ? . . . . ? |
$$ . . . ? ? . . . . ? |
$$ --------------------|[/go]

...in which case he gets less terrirory than white...

and white has an easy attack:

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[go]$$Bc
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ 4 . 3 . . 1 . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------|[/go]

I agree with Fwiffo: I like the previous suggestion better.

Actually, it was a misclick. I meant a.

@teammmates: now that all three of you have made your suggestions, you can read my comments here: viewtopic.php?p=37639#p37639



No, it wasn't. Two people liked it, but I was hoping for 'b' in the above diagram. It is the move most able to directly contest the 5-4.

As mentioned in the post referenced above, I think that the two left corners are the most important by a tiny margin. I was hoping that there would be nominations for mainstream kaklari/shimari in both of them. Then I would start reading to see which had the best continuation.

But the 5-3 kakari under a 5-4 is again a move that emphasises the side.

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[go]$$Bc
$$ |------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 1 . . . B . . B
$$ | . . . 4 3 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Black gives white an easy corner, which according to proverb, is worth more than a side. It only works if black has a presence on the upper side such as the marked stones above to make the side worth more.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In summary: by strange coincidence, two of the suggestions are for obscure josekis ( or psuedosekis ) which require a stone or two on the neighboring side. Sadly, in both instances, we don't have those stones in place, and either way we would get an inferior result if our opponents simply played the obvious and natural continuation.

So that leaves only the other suggestion at C4. I'm not sure that it is the best move - I personally would have played D17 myself - but it is the only suggestion that does not have theoretical shortcomings.

Upon looking at the third suggestion, I'm not really happy with it either.
White can take his shimari with 1.
Our theoretically best play is to contest the last asymetric corner with 2 ( or the 3-3 )
White can play a standard joseki with 3
We would have to defend with 4
They continue with 5
We play joseki with 6
They get to restrict our shimari while playing joseki with 7
We have to play something like 8
They get a nice extension off of their shimari with 9
If we get something from our shimari with 10, they have sente
They probably play 'a'

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[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . 8 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 9 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

All white stones are perfoming to their theoretical maximum, whereas black's shimari is limited. And white has sente.

Maybe the 3-3 invasion is better. It is after midnight here. More later.

I really hope Black plays there. Thoughts for observers to follow if it is confirmed

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[go]$$Bc
$$ |------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 2 . 1 . . a . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . c b . . . .
$$ | . . . O e . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

With this suggestion I was working under the assumption of white playing at 2 (From Jim Davies Attack and Defense, "The best way to attack is to not attach to a stone") then black follows up with a,b,or c...

*edit* I suppose black could play at e also... but it just doesn't appeal to me without an extension stone first

I did consider white attaching...

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[go]$$Bc
$$ |------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 2 1 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . a . . y . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . x . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I figured this sequence here would make for an interesting fight.. if white responds to 3 at a, then black plays at b.. if white responds at b, then black makes an interesting ko at a...

*Edit* I suppose could be played at x or y..... but white still gets the corner...

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[go]$$Bc
$$ |------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 2 1 . . . . . . .
$$ | . 9 6 5 8 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

But now that I read it out after a short nap, the ko doesn't look so good...

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[go]$$Bc
$$ |------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 2 1 . . a b . . .
$$ | . . 6 5 7 . . c . . . .
$$ | . . 8 O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This sequence white probably take the corner loke so, and play plays an extension to the side at a,b,or c..

Looking at this sequence in the full diagram...

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[go]$$Bcm5
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 1 . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 5 7 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 8 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c b . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . f , . . . . . , . . . . g , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I would much prefer having a stone at abcd or e... so white can not extend... you also have the danger of white f.... However even with the danger of that, white still has their unprotected corner at around g that black can play to counter those...

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[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If they do, I like this, or something like it. It denies their enclosure its ideal direction of play, takes the preferred direction from our 4-5, and threatens D17. I could say pretty much for sure that my suggestion would be somewhere near here, though I would have to consider the relative merits of playing a point or so in each direction.

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[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm trying to figure out if this is too close to the enclosure. This makes black want even less to approach us from his shimari, and if somehow he tries to pressure us from above, we can always settle with C6 or C5, although C5 trades the corner aji to settle.

I would just like to say how happy my team members are making me

I really do like this, and think it's probably better than my prior suggestion. That extra space means that we seem to be less likely to become overly dense on the left. This move (and everything else we've talked about so far) kind of fits with my answer to your earlier question about overall strategy: Instead of necessarily playing for thickness or points, we focus on playing fast. Cover ground as quickly as we can while keeping all of our stones safe or expendable, so that we end the opening spread more efficiently around the board than our opponents, if we can help it. For that reason, your C9 is cool, because after looking at it, anything else looks slow.

True, the above 2 may be better, but it still ends up with white having a corner and black getting a side.

I looked at P4. It is one of the standard approaches to the 3-5, but with the natural play in the corner, it looks like this:

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[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . b , . . . . . , 9 . . . 5 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...'a' and 'b' are miai, and white with comes away with 2 shimaris or the only shimari. That should be a privilege that only black can get by having the first move. To find ourselves in such a position suggests that we are squandering the advantage of the first move.

If Red doesn't propse his C9, I will. If he does, I'll propose the aforementioned C10. While it's a little slower and less aggressive, it does work a little easier with prospective top left enclosure.

I stick by my previous suggestion.

I have to agree with previous suggestions, but since the most natural spots are already taken, I will suggest D10. I believe C10 is better than C9, but I have no objection against either.

Agree completely with your reasoning, and delighted that you want to play on the left rather than in the corners. It feels like globally it's got some level of urgency because both Black and White really want to play there. C10 was a perfectly good choice to me.

I'm really happy you've moved the point one lower than Chew. C9 to me is absolutely perfect, for a number of reasons:

1) we still have the downwards two space jump, which totally wrecks the shimari's hopes, so Black can't easily pincer. Also, Black's pincering doesn't have the opportunity of a two space jump upwards. As a result, if Black pincered here, he can't even hope to approach in the top left without biting off more than he can chew everywhere

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[go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

2) If Black approaches from below, it's even less efficient than if it was approaching C10, and we can get a two point jump that creates fabulous shape with the corner. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 4 . . 0 . d . . e . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . 9 . . . , . . . b . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . c . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . f , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . f . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After this sequence, for example, we can now take the a->b->c sequence, and we have d an e aji to play with at the top, and perfect enclosure type formations with one of the f points in the lower right. Harmonious is an understatement. C9 just screams efficiency to me, and it's not overstretching. It's exactly where I wanted to play.

Thanks for the alternative option. On the offchance I really didn't like the left, if they've got the points you'd have chosen, you can always pick somewhere else completely. That said, I'm really happy all 3 of us felt it was so important to play there. I'm less keen on high because of the folllowing:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm6 Move 6 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is really annoying now. It's a half decent extension for Black, and really annoyingly it also leaves an open skirt, making it hard for White to transform the upper left into good territory. high may be ok if works nicely (for example, with a strong influential position on top of the board), but here it feels like a bit of a "Paris Hilton" move. It probably thinks it looks awesome and pretty, but is unlikely to do anything actually useful with itself.

Unfortunately (for me), I think all the moves so far have been excellent .

Does the bravdo seem a little forced to you? I think that they are panicking. They had two separate opportunities to enclose a corner and did not take either one, because they read that we get an advantage if they did.

This move, like all theoretically dubious moves, leaves a better move for us. Somewhere. I don't know what it is, for I haven't had the time to look closely, but it should be there.

...so take your time with this one.