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 Post subject: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #1 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:35 am 
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Nongshim cup schedule:
First stage(4 games) : 2011. 10. 11 ~ 10. 14
2nd stage(6 games) : 2011. 11. 28 ~ 12. 3
3rd stage(rest of games) : 2012. 2. 21 ~ 2. 24

Players:
Korea:Lee Changho, Won Seongjin, Kim Jiseok, Kang Yutaek, Ahn Gukhyun
China: Gu Li, Piao Wenyao, Xie He, Zhou Ruiyang, Tan Xiao
Japan: Yamashita Keigo, Hane Naoki, Yuki Satoshi, Takao Shinji, Sakai Hideyuki

The first match: Zhou Ruiyang vs Takao Shinji


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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #2 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:03 am 
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I'd complain that the Japanese once again are not sending their best players (these could be 3-7th though), but Korea is in the same boat, and probably a bit worse off. So I'll complain that China is sending too many good players ;-).

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #3 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:21 am 
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http://igokisen.web.fc2.com/wr/nc.html

As you can see in the link above, Korean players are selected through preliminary tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #4 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:38 am 
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In some way maybe this relates to the thread about top rivalries & popularity (viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4814). If Lee Sedol 9d can lose to Lee Hyeongjin 2d (who?), who then loses to An Kukhyun 3d (who?), it's hard to feel that there are any players in a truly dominant position in the international go scene. When Park Junghwan won the Fujitsu Cup there was an article describing him as possibly the next big thing in Korean go, but here he was eliminated by Won Sungjin 9d. Lee Changho is a famous name of course, but he was chosen, he didn't go through preliminaries.

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #5 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:15 pm 
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I think that's an unreasonable conclusion. Lee Sedol is off his heights of > 90% wins from a few years ago, but he's still at 70% which is just as high as the best Japanese players (which has a very consistent go scene). Maybe those numbers are different because the structure of the playoffs means that top Korean players

And of course you can't look at international title statistics without seeing how good Lee Sedol has been.

P.S. Won Sungjin is a really strong pro and the Korean ratings bear that out. It would be no more surprising for a top Korean player to lose to him than for a top Japanese pro to lose to Kono Rin.

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #6 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:06 am 
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Zhou Ruiyang defeated Takao Shinji by resign.
Next game: Ahn Gukhyun vs Zhou Ruiyang

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #7 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:36 am 
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Ahn Gukhyun defeated Zhou Ruiyang by 3.5.

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #8 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:49 am 
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some might argue that korean team is weak because of many new comer.
but i disagree with that because they all have earned the right to be there by beating others.
i feel that current korean team is as strong as previous year team.

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #9 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:20 am 
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Although it is very popular in top go competitions today, I think the knock-out format is a rather poor tool for selecting players. Even the very strongest players can make mistakes, and a single mistake can be fatal.

In this case An Kukhyun (2 dan) got into the team by defeating, in order, a 3 dan, a 1 dan, a 2 dan, and an 8 dan. Three of those are pretty much completely non-notable results.

Playing something more like Swiss or Round Robin, or even double/triple knock-out, would certainly result in a better, stronger selection of players.

E.g. with these 64 players, if you play a double-ko like system (Swiss style), after 6 rounds there will be one player on 6/6 and six players on 5/6. Have those six play one more round, and you're got four players selected (same number as the current system).

I think the only reason KO is used so much is because it takes the minimum amount of time and games to get a result.

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #10 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:57 pm 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
Although it is very popular in top go competitions today, I think the knock-out format is a rather poor tool for selecting players. Even the very strongest players can make mistakes, and a single mistake can be fatal.

In this case An Kukhyun (2 dan) got into the team by defeating, in order, a 3 dan, a 1 dan, a 2 dan, and an 8 dan. Three of those are pretty much completely non-notable results.

Playing something more like Swiss or Round Robin, or even double/triple knock-out, would certainly result in a better, stronger selection of players.

E.g. with these 64 players, if you play a double-ko like system (Swiss style), after 6 rounds there will be one player on 6/6 and six players on 5/6. Have those six play one more round, and you're got four players selected (same number as the current system).

I think the only reason KO is used so much is because it takes the minimum amount of time and games to get a result.

I also think that such surprise results are attractive to the sponsors as they may raise interest in the tournament. If you wanted to select the strongest team, why use a qualifier at all? You could just use the rating lists, which reflect a much wider sample of games and should be a better measure. Of course the sponsors might get maximum public interest at minimum cost by having the teams selected by public votes. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #11 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:09 pm 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
Although it is very popular in top go competitions today, I think the knock-out format is a rather poor tool for selecting players. Even the very strongest players can make mistakes, and a single mistake can be fatal.

In this case An Kukhyun (2 dan) got into the team by defeating, in order, a 3 dan, a 1 dan, a 2 dan, and an 8 dan. Three of those are pretty much completely non-notable results.

Playing something more like Swiss or Round Robin, or even double/triple knock-out, would certainly result in a better, stronger selection of players.

E.g. with these 64 players, if you play a double-ko like system (Swiss style), after 6 rounds there will be one player on 6/6 and six players on 5/6. Have those six play one more round, and you're got four players selected (same number as the current system).

I think the only reason KO is used so much is because it takes the minimum amount of time and games to get a result.


if you are much stronger than your opponent you wont lose.
every player who wins KO have earned their right to be there.
your argument is like saying "send top 5 rated players to represent each country" which i strongly disagree.

fyi, ahn was very strong player who played even with already professional before becoming professional.
he became professional on dec 2009 and may of 2010 he beat lee chang ho.
i personally think he is more stable player than lee chang ho now.

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #12 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:30 pm 
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You really can't go by professional dan grades in Korea--Kim Kiwon seems to be doing quite well according to the win/loss tables. Na Hyun, you might know as having beat a couple of strong professionals while an amateur, reaching the top 16 of the Samsung, and generally doing quite well in Korean tournaments. They're not yet at the very top, but beating them is far from meaningless.

Because the promotion system is so hard, and players reach the top so young, you have to look at results for Korean players. I almost think it's too hard, so that low dan ranks just aren't informative enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #13 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:34 am 
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Ahn Gukhyun deeated Sakai Hideyuki by resign.

Won 2 games in a row.

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #14 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:58 am 
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Magicwand wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
Although it is very popular in top go competitions today, I think the knock-out format is a rather poor tool for selecting players. Even the very strongest players can make mistakes, and a single mistake can be fatal.

In this case An Kukhyun (2 dan) got into the team by defeating, in order, a 3 dan, a 1 dan, a 2 dan, and an 8 dan. Three of those are pretty much completely non-notable results.

Playing something more like Swiss or Round Robin, or even double/triple knock-out, would certainly result in a better, stronger selection of players.

E.g. with these 64 players, if you play a double-ko like system (Swiss style), after 6 rounds there will be one player on 6/6 and six players on 5/6. Have those six play one more round, and you're got four players selected (same number as the current system).

I think the only reason KO is used so much is because it takes the minimum amount of time and games to get a result.


if you are much stronger than your opponent you wont lose.
every player who wins KO have earned their right to be there.
your argument is like saying "send top 5 rated players to represent each country" which i strongly disagree.

fyi, ahn was very strong player who played even with already professional before becoming professional.
he became professional on dec 2009 and may of 2010 he beat lee chang ho.
i personally think he is more stable player than lee chang ho now.


And if you are only a little stronger than your opponent, you might lose. Practically speaking, pretty much any professional can lose to any other professional. Their strengths are close enough together that a single mistake can be fatal.

Also, I'm not saying "send top 5 rated players" at all! Rating is not perfect either. It may lag behind for quickly improving players, or may be too high for players that are not currently playing their best due to circumstances (e.g. they are nervous because they are about to have a child, get married, etc). Also, it's boring! Lets have some games!

What I want to see is games between players as strong as possible. So I want those teams to be as strong as possible. Really, interesting games between the very strongest players are the thing I want most out of a tournament. I don't even care much who wins, as long as excellent games are being played.
So I proposed a qualification tournament with more games, which results in a stronger team, and you are opposed to this?

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #15 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:32 am 
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HermanHiddema wrote:
What I want to see is games between players as strong as possible. So I want those teams to be as strong as possible. Really, interesting games between the very strongest players are the thing I want most out of a tournament. I don't even care much who wins, as long as excellent games are being played.
So I proposed a qualification tournament with more games, which results in a stronger team, and you are opposed to this?

I agree Herman. I just don't see how it can possibly happen with the already grinding tournament schedule top pros have to deal with. In fact, I suspect that's what causes young pros to shoot up and then burn out. Someone really strong like Lee Sedol can stay at the top, despite the strain, but even he has trouble.

Remember when Lee took a year off? I believe that was partly due to too many games. And remember how strong he was for awhile after he came back. I think that's because he was fresh.

It would be really cool to see some old school jubango between top players with really long time limits and no other games wearing people out in between. Unfortunately it's probably never going to happen unless some eccentric Go fan gets extremely rich and sponsors it for their own edification...

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #16 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:37 am 
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Again you are assuming that they are weaker than top few. That i disagree. Also i love to see more newcomer playing and proving that they are ready

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #17 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:06 am 
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Magicwand wrote:
Again you are assuming that they are weaker than top few. That i disagree. Also i love to see more newcomer playing and proving that they are ready


I am assuming no such thing. :scratch:

Regardless of the strengths of the players, it is a simple fact that a KO tournament makes it more likely that a relatively weaker player gets through, when compared to other tournaments that have more rounds and are less vulnerable to flukes.

If a newcomer is truly ready, he can prove it in another tournament format just as well...

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Post #18 Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:10 am 
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No Iyama Yuuta, Lee Sedol and Kong Jie? Shame :(

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #19 Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:45 am 
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Doesn't the "double knockout" swiss only add one additional game?

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 Post subject: Re: Nongshim cup starts.
Post #20 Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:17 am 
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hyperpape wrote:
Doesn't the "double knockout" swiss only add one additional game?


With 64 players, it develops like this: (W = winners pool, L = losers pool)

1. W:32, L:32
2. W:16, L:32
3. W:8, L:24
4. W:4, L:16
5. W:2, L:10
6. W:1, L:6

The undefeated player then qualifies, while the six players in the loser pool play one more round for the remaining three spots.

So 7 rounds, as opposed to the 4 rounds that the current KO has. In total, 91 games will be played, as opposed to the 60 games that are currently played.

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