A recent loss

Phelan · #1

I recently played this game, and it felt like my opponent was pretty good at countering my influence based play.
Was this true, or did I make too many strategic mistakes?

I feel pretty bad about letting the M8 group live so easily, I wonder if it could be attacked more severely.

shapenaji · #2

It's not influence-based play if you don't use it. Perhaps you mean moyo-style?

You jumped out several times letting him get 4th line territory on the bottom, but then never invaded the left side. You also treated all of your stones as perpetually weak. If they are weak, then their influence is negated.

If you think there is validity in making a big wall like that, you can't keep taking slow moves to make it nicer and nicer looking, at some point you have to actually lie in the bed you've made.

jts · #3

I think you need to keep in mind what territory you're giving up for your influence, and balancing it against the opportunities your influence opens up. Trading a 4th line bottom for a line of 6th line stones makes sense in some circumstances - if you can then threaten to turn the entire left side into your territory, for example, or if B had already created a weak group that is now in the shadow of your influence. Just giving him 4th line territory (which also solidifies his claim to the 6th line territory you gave him earlier) for the heck of it is a less good idea. Find a way to emphasize influence elsewhere on the board. --- Likewise with p7 and the following sequence. I'm sure there are boards where this wall is more valuable than the corner, but this isn't one of them. (You didn't even get to make an extension for your stones...)

I also thought that you missed out on some big endgame moves. Example: the meaning of playing E6 and omitting B4 is that the corner is still exposed to invasion. Maybe we're talking about a swing of 18 points? And depending on the sequence, you might have either sente, or a big followup later. Meanwhile I don't think you can hope for more than 6 points from the area that you blocked right before B defended the corner.

Just some things that occurred to me. Perhaps Ed will show us that since 2007, pros always play p7 on an empty board.

hyperpape · #4

Isn't

unnecessary?

EdLee · #5

jts wrote:

p7 on an empty board.

JTS, just for fun:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . b O . . . | $$. . . X X O . . | $$. . . . . a . . | $$. . . . X . . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . | $$-----------------[/go]

On an empty board, this pattern returned zero pro games.

Local corner search:
(a) = 115 games (1697 - 2009)
(b) = 2 games (1740 - 1991)

[ Typo-checking: 1697 is the 17th century, 3 years before 1700. 1740 is 60 years before 1800. ]

Bill Spight · #6

A few comments on the early game.

Yes, you did not make very good use of your wall. However, your problems came earlier.

Main point: Don't run.

---
Edit: I just took a look at your use of time. :w16:

- 2 sec.

0 sec. (Not a bad move, but was it that obvious?) :w20:

- 3 sec.

- 3 sec.

- 5 sec.

That's 13 sec. for 5 moves, one of them good. You know, with 25 min. main time, you can make 150 moves at an average of 10 sec. per move, without entering byo-yomi.

Phelan · #7

Thank you all for your comments!

shapenaji wrote:

It's not influence-based play if you don't use it. Perhaps you mean moyo-style?

You jumped out several times letting him get 4th line territory on the bottom, but then never invaded the left side. You also treated all of your stones as perpetually weak. If they are weak, then their influence is negated.

If you think there is validity in making a big wall like that, you can't keep taking slow moves to make it nicer and nicer looking, at some point you have to actually lie in the bed you've made.

Yep, moyo-style is probably it.
The left seemed too solid to attack at the time, so I just thought I could only reduce it.

jts wrote:

I also thought that you missed out on some big endgame moves. Example: the meaning of playing E6 and omitting B4 is that the corner is still exposed to invasion. Maybe we're talking about a swing of 18 points? And depending on the sequence, you might have either sente, or a big followup later. Meanwhile I don't think you can hope for more than 6 points from the area that you blocked right before B defended the corner.

I had a 'Doh!' moment when he closed that corner. Endgame is not one of my strong points.

hyperpape wrote:

Isn't

unnecessary?

You're right, it is.

Bill Spight wrote:

A few comments on the early game.

Yes, you did not make very good use of your wall. However, your problems came earlier.

Main point: Don't run.

Thanks! Those alternatives to the attack on M8 are pretty cool!

Bill Spight wrote:

---
Edit: I just took a look at your use of time. :w16:

- 2 sec.

0 sec. (Not a bad move, but was it that obvious?) :w20:

- 3 sec.

- 3 sec.

- 5 sec.

That's 13 sec. for 5 moves, one of them good. You know, with 25 min. main time, you can make 150 moves at an average of 10 sec. per move, without entering byo-yomi.

I used to have a problem playing fast, and often lost on time. I forced myself to play faster, to fix that. However, now I seem to have the opposite problem, and am finding it harder to slow down than it was to speed up. :oops:

ez4u · #8

Let's consider two basic points at the beginning of the game. First, in the very first exchange in the upper left, White replies to :b5:

with the low play at :w6:

. This is a tight, territory-oriented reply. Black then plays high with :b7:

(a little more aggressive than "a", which leaves an invasion point at "b"). This starts to build a framework on the left side. So what should White do next?

The approach chosen at :w8:

is from the wrong direction. It says, "OK, Black is building up a framework stretching from the upper left around the lower left to the lower right. I will counter it with my own framework stretching around the upper right." But, this idea directly contradicts :w6:

! White has started out territorially and now decides to match moyo to moyo. This change of direction one move later is not likely to turn out well.

What do the pros do? GoGoD has about 40 professional games with the position after :b7:

. In none of them does White approach the lower right corner next. :blackeye:

Most of the time White approaches the lower left at one or the other of the points marked "c". There are also cases where White simply splits the lower side around "d".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . . d . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Consider as well the analogous position in the Kobayashi fuseki below. GoGoD has almost 280 games with the :b5:

,

,

in the upper left. In almost 250 of the games White approaches the lower left corner at one of the points marked "a" next. There are actually a couple of games where White approaches the lower right, but from "b" rather than the other side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , a a . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . a a . . . . . . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or consider the mini-Chinese. Black's framework is lower and definitely inviting a fight but still the overall concept of splitting up the board is similar. Out of almost 680 examples in GoGoD from the position shown, the pros played next around "a", splitting the side, about 620 times. In this case the next most popular idea was indeed approaching the lower right, but again at "b" (about 40 cases) rather than from the other side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm5 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . a . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . a a . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Second, Bill quotes Jowa regarding the pincer in the lower left, "Don't run!" However, the point may be a little obscure. I think it is more useful to realize that we should only jump out with a pincered stone when doing so makes (at least) two threats - and simply saving one stone is not a threat until late in the endgame.

Generally, we only want to jump out when doing so makes a threat on both sides of the pincered stone. In the game, :w20:

threatened to play around 21, but Black happily solved that problem by playing :b21:

himself. In the case where the marked Black stone is not on the board, White's usual second threat is the shoulder hit at "a". However, in the game there is no such threat and so in fact White is "only running" - against the advice of the masters! (Jowa and Bill that is ;-)

)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm18 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . $$ | . . . a . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 1 . 3 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . 4 . . . X . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ -----------------------[/go]

Phelan · #9

Thanks, Dave! That makes it much clearer. I'll pay attention to it in my next games.

A recent loss

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