Hello to the 19*19 community!

I am a newborn in the go world (i've just bought my goban and an beginner's book), and i was looking for a go forum to discuss with other players, GD was likely to be dead (i couldn't post ), therefore i've arrived here! I'm a french student, so excuse me for the english mistakes =)
Actually i've lost ALL my games on kgs, have you some tips to improve my game (i've already download a huge tsumego book to work my lecture)?

Thx,

Elesthor

Hi Elesthor!

Welcome to L19.

In terms of getting better ... ask questions! People here and on KGS are always willing to help out beginners. Ask for teaching games, reviews, etc.

Welcome! Play games, and you'll improve. Plenty of other French speakers around too (not me, sadly), so you're not alone. Glad to have you around. Like Marcus says, if you have any questions, just ask!

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

Thanx for your welcome

I've a question about the fuseki, do you think it is better for a beginner to concentrate on one or two ( and learn the main related josekis ) or trying to watch a lot of them quickly?

If you're just starting out, I recommend picking one thing and trying it for a while until you get a general idea of how it works. I recommend starting with 4-4 stones as your opening, just because that will also help you know how to play in handicap games. Once you feel a little more confident about those, try 3-4 or 3-3, mixed in with the 4-4 you're already comfortable with.

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

Bienvenue et enchanté

May your journey with go be long and joyful.

Just to get started you can sign up at 321go.org. Once you have taken the course and done the exercise you should be around 15 kyu.

As was mentioned above, most beginners start with Nirensei and play games with that for a while as both White or Black. The advantage of this is how (relatively) simple the continuations are.

However, as a brand new beginner, don't worry too much about joseki. Start with understanding individual moves (ask questions like "Why did THIS move work for my opponent?" and "What if THIS move was THERE instead?"). Once you start to understand individual moves, it becomes easier to see good shape. With good shape, joseki start to be more easily understood. It will be a while before you should start studying joseki. Don't get discouraged, though. It will come eventually.

I'm a beginner, too.

What I like to play when I'm black is the star point in the upper right, and then just below the star point in the lower right.

I like the advice that Marcus gives. Focusing on individual moves is a really good idea. I haven't done it yet, but studying what would have happened is an excellent way to learn.

Don't get discouraged, the wins will eventually come. Also, don't be afraid to ask questions if you have any.

_________________
My plan to become an SDK is here.

Welcome, Elesthor!

Just to be clear (and to show you how to post diagrams), do you mean this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Opening 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Opening 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Both are ok, as long as you have a plan in mind.

If you prefer to react to your opponent, nirensei (two star points in a row) is better. It's what I started with and what I still play a lot.

_________________
a1h1 [1d]: You just need to curse the gods and defend.
Good Go = Shape.
Associação Portuguesa de Go

Thx for the site karaklis

hum, sinrensei looks nice, but won't i risk a double san-san invasion ?

Of course it is good for the center conrol,but for a beginner, the priority isn't to make stable territory fast?

No! Don't start by building bad habits through over-prioritising stable territory. The only way you can start to understand the usefulness of the thickness double san-san invasions will give you is by letting it happen. If you avoid it, that'll always be a hole in your understanding.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Opening 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . t e n |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . p o i n t s |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {AR P3 P9}
$$ {AR P17 P11}[/go]

As far as the double-invasion goes, let 'em try! The invasion gives your opponent about ten points in each corner, but in response, you get huge walls overshadowing the east side of the board. These walls radiate strength in the direction of the arrows. Everything between them becomes your 'turf'. While it is not territory and points yet, any opponent stones that wander into your turf will be attacked immediately, and you will be building territory, points, and more walls as you chase them away. The 3-3 invasion is a very useful tool, but it's often bad for the person who does it, compared to their other options. That is, approaching a corner from one side or the other tends to build a shape that has access to the center and can continue doing things for you. Once you can no longer approach either side easily (if your opponent has already extended in both directions), the 3-3 invasion becomes attractive. Since you can't get anything else in the area, it's great for you to get ten easy points and deprive your opponent of 20 or so.

So don't be too concerned. Pick any corner stone locations you're curious about and give it a shot. =)

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

Thank you for the explanation! I will try the sinrensei in my next game =)


You speak about approaching the hoshi's stone, but which moves are good in order to attack this point? And in a more general way, to attack corners?

Well, there are all sorts of possible ways for approaching or attacking corners. The one most common is a knight's move approach (shown below).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Opening 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 b . . c . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . a . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This is often best when you have the other star point in the direction you approach from (like black does here). That starts to have your stones working together already. 'a', 'b', 'c', and 'd' should all be options black to approach the corner in different situations, as well.

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

How the black stone attacks the white one? It is not in contact... It just prevents from a white extension, doesn't it?

White plays the 4-4 saying 'I want to build stone shapes in this area'. Black is saying 'Not in this direction, you don't.

When I said attack, I do not mean to kill. I mean restricting white's options. If white lets you keep coming back to the area, you might restrict one direction at a time until he has nowhere to run, but that's not really the intent. It halfway forces white to either go the opposite direction or pincer, which is fighting to struggle in that restricted direction. Both can turn out perfectly fine for both players. By approaching the corner, you are hoping to get either the corner or a piece of the side you approach from (if not some of both). So attack may not be as good a term, as 'approach'. Black is hoping that something like this happens.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B common response
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . 1 . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

You see, neither player really got that much of the corner, but both got fairly solid shapes that give them a stake on one side or the other. Black is particularly happy because this solid shape complements his top right stone, helping him build a loose network across the whole top. White can certainly invade or approach, but black is going to get something out of it, since he's so well positioned. There may be better responses, but this sort of setup happens a lot.

_________________
Someday I want to be strong enough to earn KGS[-].

The most important rule in Go is:

Each player can play at most one stone on his turn.

In this situation, the black stone has 4 liberties:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . X . . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .[/go]

If now White plays here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . X 1 . .
$$ . . . . . .
$$ . . . . . .[/go]

is this an attack? Please remember that it is Black's move now.

Answer:


If you explore the above mentioned rule (each player can play at most one stone on his turn), you will see that setting up a single big continuation just lets the opponent take that away. The trick in Go is to play in such a way that more big continuations are available of which the opponent can take only one on his next move. This works in a mutual fashion, and very often, the opponent's point is your own (meaning that you and the opponent want to play the same point).

Now, what kind of moves do we want to play? Mostly, this means extending one's own stones or taking an extension from the opponent's. We build loose frameworks on a large scale, which then get invaded or tightened on a smaller scale, and finally sometimes transformed into territory. However, the larger scale is based on knowledge of the smaller scale, so it makes sense to first mainly explore the basic stone interactions on a small board, then turn to gradually bigger ones.

_________________
A good system naturally covers all corner cases without further effort.

I know this may sound biased coming from someone with a screenname like mine, but...

Your strength will increase proportionally to your ability to read and fight. Especially for beginners, I recommend doing a good amount of stone capturing problems and just getting good at capturing.

I think i've understand what you mean!

So, my aim in an attack isn't actually to kill the stone(s) I approach, but to reduce my opponent's choices and possibilities (like extensions,...). It is both an attack move and a defensive one (preventing from an extension too).


@ Violence: I am making Life and death's Tsumegos almost everyday =)

Sounds like you're grokking this way faster than I ever did . Great job, let us know if you have any other questions. Yeah, I really ought to do more L+D...