32nd Samsung cup main tournament

[Kirby]

I read a couple of articles after the game. It's not a full-fledged review, but this[1] source indicates that Lee Sedol's opening was a failure by move 40:

$$ Position at move 40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . O O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . B . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$ Position at move 40
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . O O . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . B . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

With the marked black move, Lee Sedol makes himself thick - but at the cost of letting white get solid on the top.

To compensate, Lee Sedol should get profit from attacking the right group, but with white's marked move, white's the first one to move out into the center, and there's not much of an attack left.

[1]http://www.tygem.com/news/news/viewpage.asp?pagec=&seq=20407&gubun=&find=&findword=

[Uberdude]

I was surprised by Lee's L3, it feels so small and low and pathetic (and shouldn't it be L4 after he plays h3? though of course if you do that it's more likely white will play j3 either immediately or try to get sente to do so after doing something on the right). And then not playing q18 too was perhaps trying to justify L3 but meant he staked the game on attacking the right side group but that was hard to profit from.

[goTony]

I really appreciated the commentary by Myungwan Kim 9p on the AGA youtube page. To have such a strong commentator is a real asset to understanding and enjoying the game. Thanks to the AGA, Mr Kim, and Mr Jackson. I did not know of this tourney but saw the link on OGS. I texted four of our club members and let them know right away!

[Kirby]

I was surprised by Lee's L3, it feels so small and low and pathetic (and shouldn't it be L4 after he plays h3? though of course if you do that it's more likely white will play j3 either immediately or try to get sente to do so after doing something on the right). And then not playing q18 too was perhaps trying to justify L3 but meant he staked the game on attacking the right side group but that was hard to profit from.

Yeah, it could very well be that black was behind by this point. From the article, it just says that after move 40, you can see that black's opening was a failure.

[Solomon]

Huge thanks to Andrew (seigenblues) for setting up last night's stream, and to both him and Kim Myungwan 9p for the commentary!

[Uberdude]

I was surprised by Lee's L3, it feels so small and low and pathetic (and shouldn't it be L4 after he plays h3? though of course if you do that it's more likely white will play j3 either immediately or try to get sente to do so after doing something on the right). And then not playing q18 too was perhaps trying to justify L3 but meant he staked the game on attacking the right side group but that was hard to profit from.

Yeah, it could very well be that black was behind by this point. From the article, it just says that after move 40, you can see that black's opening was a failure.

So rewinding to find where things start to go wrong, if L3 is not so great then what is better? 4th line below hoshi on right? Invade top side 3-space extension (but we don't have ladder so not so great)? q18 seems too slow. Other extensions on lower side not so amazing. In which case we go back to the peep on left side group. If black connects the jump then white will likely defend the top side. Then black could choose between tenuki (such as approach bottom left) or reinforce with another jump, in which case white likely plays the same knight move as the game but then c6 is more exciting for black (downside is white has an extra stone on top side so invading there is harder, but it's also smaller so invasion less necessary). Or going back even further is black's 2 space extension on the 3rd line the root of the problem? The lighter 3 space extension to the 4th line is fashionable these days and appeals to me.

(I didn't watch the AGA broadcast, maybe they address these issues)

[goTony]

If anyone knows Mr Jackson, perhaps they can contact him and request he post an announcement "Live Commentary will continue in 10 minutes" or some such announcement, during the breaks I would hate for someone to sign on and think there is no game going on, or no commentary and miss it.

[seigenblues]

If anyone knows Mr Jackson, perhaps they can contact him and request he post an announcement "Live Commentary will continue in 10 minutes" or some such announcement, during the breaks I would hate for someone to sign on and think there is no game going on, or no commentary and miss it.

On it.

I read a couple of articles after the game. It's not a full-fledged review, but this[1] source indicates that Lee Sedol's opening was a failure by move 40:
...
To compensate, Lee Sedol should get profit from attacking the right group, but with white's marked move, white's the first one to move out into the center, and there's not much of an attack left.

[1]http://www.tygem.com/news/news/viewpage.asp?pagec=&seq=20407&gubun=&find=&findword=

Aha! I knew it! I didn't like the position at 40 and was looking for other alternatives... it's possible there is no alternative to 40 and that the mistake is earlier, but even so, it seems like #40 is too slow/conservative.

We'll do the same show again tonight! 7:30pm pacific! See you there

[Kirby]

So rewinding to find where things start to go wrong...

I'd say that being as awesome as Ke Jie is would be a good start

[trout]

3rd round Semi fianl 2nd game 11/4

Ke Jie defeated Lee Sedol by resign.
Ke Jie(2:0) advances to Final.
Shi Yue defeated Tang Weixing by resign.

Shi Yue vs Tang Weixing 1:1

[wineandgolover]

So I watched both AGA broadcasts and they were excellent.

The most amazing thing about the two Ke Jie - Lee Sedol games was how early Ke Jie took command. In both games, Myungwan Kim describe Lee Sedol as desperate well before the hundredth move.

It's also funny that being three or five points behind is desperate.

[Uberdude]

I just checked Ke Jie's stats in go4go. This year he has won 57 out of 71 games or 80% (and that's against top international players). Of those 14 he lost, I noticed 4 were against Qiu Jun 9p (and 2 wins, plus the 1 last year for the 3 wins to win 2nd Bailing cup 3:2) so studying those games could be interesting to find Ke's weakness.

Those loses:
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/47917
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/47049
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/46680
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/45289 (Ke Jie fell for trick in outside turn avalanche joseki)

[Kirby]

I just checked Ke Jie's stats in go4go. This year he has won 57 out of 71 games or 80% (and that's against top international players).

Another interesting thing that I read in an article was that, in 2015, Ke Jie hasn't lost as white. In an interview, he noted that 7.5 komi was too high, and perhaps even 6.5 was too high.

[joppon]

Am I the only person who sees these games as bizarre?

One of Lee Sedol’s tendencies/philosophies over the years has been to not let his opponent get too thick a position or moyo (described quite nicely by kim myunghwan as keeping his opponent under tension) and I, over the years had come to expect this. So I simply could not believe what I was seeing, when it dawned on me during the second game that he seemed to be playing with the intention of winning peacefully in the endgame.

Even my weak eyes could see that black was behind by move 40 of the first game. I was expecting invasions and battles, but Lee just kept on allowing Ke to settle groups and become thick.

At no point (at least to my eyes) did Ke 'take command' of either game; he didn’t have to. After Lee’s customary/traditional coming-out-of-the-opening-behind tactic, he(Lee) played two essentially passive games.

I just cannot comprehend the motivation behind such a strategy: You lose all your national and international titles. Your condition is so bad that you’re losing games to people who can’t get past 4D and against whom you have a 100% win rate. It takes you a year and a half to finally scrape together the vestiges of your previous good form. The 30 games before the semis see you with 23 wins. Second only to your opponent who has 25 and an 11% higher win rate for the entire year, is just 17 to your 32 and therefore has something to prove (with, no doubt, the attendant personal drive fundamental to proving it).

So… it stands to reason that you would
a) change the way you’re playing. Because after all, it’s only lead to your best form in 2 1/2 years
b) change to a style of play that you have almost certainly never adopted in the entirety of your go playing existence. Because after all, you’re only playing against he, who on current form is the world’s greatest player.

No, wait a second. I take it all back there’s nothing bizarre about this. It all makes perfect sense.

[trout]

3rd round Semi fianl 3rd game 11/5

Shi Yue defeated Tang Weixing by resign.

Shi Yue advances to Final.




Some lucky BIBA students are reviewing 3rd game with Ke Jie.

Final;
12/8,9,10 in China Ke Jie vs Shi Yue