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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1001 Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:54 pm 
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I have tried to take Alpha Go and apply it to my game, but it's really difficult. The value network idea is extremely difficult because there's so much to take into account. There's so many moves you don't end up seeing that could have been better. Glad to see you're trying this approach. I might try taking notes too. I play too much with feeling and I just play where I think is good, not necessarily because of some chain of logical reasoning, which I think is not good long term.

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Post #1002 Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:15 pm 
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about alpha go style..

Lately, i decided to play what i think is a good move but was told that it bad by stronger players.
alpha go played it and professionals agreed but many are moves that was my first instinct.

as a result of my experiment i am losing more games than before... but sometimes those moves help me win.
i will continue experiment with this approach until my winning percentage increase...

i will let everyone know if i see improvement in near future.
it is my desprate approach to improve...since i am stuck at my level too long.

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Post #1003 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:25 pm 
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Coming back to go (knock on wood?).

I had a fun time at the go congress, and decided to join the AYD again in September. Hopefully, my family medical situation stays stable.

Anyway, I decided to play a game on my "Kirby" account on KGS, which is 1k.

Here's the game:



Compared to how I felt during the game, when I saw the final score, I was amazed it was so close - I felt like I was winning by more.

But going through the game, I see that I made a series of endgame mistakes - even ones that I can see.

Sadly, I'm not going to make all of the diagrams for this review. That's pretty time consuming compared to the benefit I seem to get for it.

I've been somewhat conscious of the benefit I get vs. effort I spend on stuff, lately.

Maybe it's part of getting older. :grumpy:

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Post #1004 Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:40 am 
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Both sides made endgame mistakes in the lower left corner. B199 feels good but actually helps W. The game would have been really close if B had turned the corner into seki.


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Post #1005 Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:47 pm 
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Instead of playing a game today, I reviewed part of a professional game. I get a monthly Korean go magazine, so I just took a game from that. I looked through the game move by move, and sometimes looked at commentary.



The file above is only the partial game. It's getting late, so I couldn't finish going through it all. Next time I go over a pro game, I'll continue from that position.

Note: The game tree doesn't show the main line on the first branch. I moved through alternative variations on the main lines sometimes, so you have to dig around to find the real game. Look for the longest branch.

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Post #1006 Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:26 pm 
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Wife wanted to drink tonight, so no game today. I have a work event tomorrow evening, so I'll aim to play another game on Friday.

Stay tuned.

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Post #1007 Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:55 am 
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Quote:
But going through the game, I see that I made a series of endgame mistakes - even ones that I can see.

I've been using CrazySensei to analyze some of my games recently, and oneo thing it's made abundantly clear is that nearly every close game at my level is decided by a series of huge endgame errors.


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Post #1008 Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:16 pm 
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As promised, I played another game today.

Incidentally, it appears to have been the same opponent. Maybe we're the only ones that use automatch around 1k at this time of day.

Here's the game record.


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Post #1009 Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:17 pm 
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My biggest question from the last game is just in this position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X X . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O O O X . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X X . . O X . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O O X . . X X X X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X O O X X O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . O X X . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . X X . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What's the best way to respond to the marked stone??

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1010 Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:25 pm 
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As a side note, one of my wife's magazines was opened, and I noticed an article about weight loss walking by. I didn't really read the article thoroughly because I was preoccupied with something else, but it was some Q&A article with a question to the effect of getting motivation to lose weight and become the weight they once were like 15 years ago. The weight loss guru recommended not to compare to the person's previous self, and to just look at their current weight and body situation, and see what they could do to improve it.

I find myself in the same situation with go these days. I feel that I'm weaker for sure (not a lot, since I was never that much stronger than 1d-ish on KGS), and it's tempting to compare myself to that time. Maybe that results in a bit of overplay on my part.

Maybe a better strategy is to assess my current situation: on par with losing to KGS 1k these days, overplaying, and not reading situations deeply enough.

I think I have to admit that to myself before I can really advance.

Hard to do with my pride, though. :roll:

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Post #1011 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:25 am 
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Hi Kirby,

I'd play the same :w80: .

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Post #1012 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:17 am 
Gosei

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Kirby wrote:
My biggest question from the last game is just in this position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X X . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O O O X . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X X . . O X . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O O X . . X X X X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X O O X X O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . O X X . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . X X . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What's the best way to respond to the marked stone??

I would have pincered at Q12 or R12 (and the fact that two stronger players voted for the opposite shows that I am probably wrong!). Normally I would want to play something like O16, using my thickness below to make the Black stone uncomfortable while making territory at the top, but I don't feel intuitively that White's position on the lower right side is thick at all; it has a bunch of cutting points and few liberties. So I would instinctively want to play a move like Q12 that indirectly protects those cutting points while attacking Black.

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Post #1013 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:26 am 
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Kirby wrote:
My biggest question from the last game is just in this position.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X X . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O O O X . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X X . . O X . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O O X . . X X X X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X O O X X O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . O X X . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . X X . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What's the best way to respond to the marked stone??


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . 1 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X X . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O O O X . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X X . . O X . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O O X . . X X X X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X O O X X O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . O X X . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . X X . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My feeling is to play the usual :w1:, with the expectation of sacrificing a few stones on the right side in the ensuing fight. :)

A pincer at "a" also comes to mind, but a double kakari looks good for Black. Besides, AlphaGo seems not to like pincers, and likes to leave unsettled groups around. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1014 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:32 am 
Gosei

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For what it's worth, I let Crazy Stone look at the position for a while (15 million playouts), and the pincer of R12 was its second favorite move. Its top move, by a hair, was something that did not occur to me for even an instant:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 1 . . , X O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X X . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O O O X . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X X . . O X . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O O X . . X X X X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X O O X X O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . O X X . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . X X . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
O16 is a little behind them.

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Post #1015 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:17 pm 
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The reason I'm reluctant to pincer is that I can't get much on the right.

CrazyStone's favorite move is interesting, though, I don't get the intention.

Is this a situation where CS thinks white is behind and needs to play aggressively?

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Post #1016 Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:13 am 
Gosei

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Kirby wrote:
CrazyStone's favorite move is interesting, though, I don't get the intention.

Is this a situation where CS thinks white is behind and needs to play aggressively?

I think it's just that Black's lower left group (E5 et al) is not necessarily strong. With G10 White threatens to either barrel through the middle or make Black have to work for two eyes with his lower left group while White harasses him.

If I recall correctly Crazy Stone thought the game at that point was very close with a small advantage to Black (52 or 53% chance of winning).

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Post #1017 Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:39 am 
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CrazyStone's move is interesting, pointing out that black's lower left wall is not alive. I think the plan is something like below if black ignores to double approach. 3 is locally sente to cut, but in gote and bad shape so maybe black can block at 4 as 8 is pleasing as white's very short of liberties but maybe he can duke it out as the wall needs to come back to live, if that's even possible (a-e is shape feeling but seems not to live).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . 2 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 3 . 1 . . , X O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X X . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 5 O X O O O X . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . O 7 O X X X . . O X . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O O X . . X X X X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . a b X O O X X O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . O X X . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . e . O . . . . X X . O O . . |
$$ | . d c . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So maybe white extends once, making a/b miai:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . 2 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 3 . 1 . . , X O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X X . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . b O X O O O X . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X X . . O X . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O O X . . X X X X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X O O X X O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . O X X . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . X X . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Or perhaps cap directly, the shortage of liberties of the 2 centre stones means white can handle a-e:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . 2 . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . g i j . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 b d e f . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . a c 1 h . , X O . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X X . X X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O O O X . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X X . . O X . X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O O X . . X X X X O . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . X O O X X O X . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . O . O X X . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . O . . . . X X . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And if black does answer the extension, where to do so? Something like jump out to 3 above still leaves bad aji of peep and cut, and white could use them to reduce the centre, or sacrifice them as it will take black several moves to capture them. On the other hand if black played atari there he gets very thick in the centre so as well as safety for the wall white can't reduce his centre potential easily.


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Post #1018 Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:47 am 
Honinbo

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dfan wrote:
I think it's just that Black's lower left group (E5 et al) is not necessarily strong.


Yeah, I get that it's not strong. Just hard for me to play that way - it's pretty contrary to my intuition. Maybe I'll feel differently later.

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Post #1019 Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:22 pm 
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I played against KGS 1d today, since my rank got back to 1d.

Here's the game record:


I think I could have died in one of the variations. Also, the opening didn't seem very good to me. Not exactly sure where that got messed up. Maybe with my experimental joseki on the left.

Some highlights:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Above, I think black's marked move flattens my shape, and makes for a great game for black.

I guess I can blame my choice of the marked white move?

Another one:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O , O . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . X X O O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . W . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O X X X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X X X W W W X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . X O O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . a O . . X W . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think that my "eye-stealing-tesuji" was not that effective, since his move at 'a' seems better than I thought. If he had disconnected me as in the variation, my marked white group didn't have many liberties.

Those are the main takeaways for me from this game, since after the capture, things got more comfortable.

1.) Should avoid getting into that weird shape in the opening..
2.) Careful about unnecessary peeps and "eye-stealing-tesji" type moves.

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 Post subject: Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Post #1020 Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:10 pm 
Honinbo

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Here's the continuation of a pro game I started to go through a few days ago.


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