Prokovich game

Tooveli · **#41**

As stated above I personally like White here. White has developed faster and 2 corners + 2 sides > 2 corners.

For the next move, splitting the bottom seems intuitive (K3 I guess) , but I wonder if it really is all that big. Making a moyo from 3-3 points is traditionally bad so maybe Black doesn't mind if White gets to do this. For that reason C12 might be playable. I'm not sure which I'd play if it was my game. Probably K3 in a tournament (because it can't be all that bad even if not optimal) and C12 online (because it might be bad but I like it).

daniel_the_smith · **#42**

Yeah, I now prefer white, which really surprises me considering I hated white's position a few moves ago.

Kirby · **#43**

K4, maybe.

Dusk Eagle · **#44**

I don't like how low white is in this game. I think black will have an easier time controlling the center of the board. I'd prefer to be black here, and to play a wedge at K3.

dfan · **#45**

This seemed to be the general consensus, and it is indeed what Black played - well done. Now what? Approach this stone (from which side)? Split the top? Something else?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 Move 9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

calm · **#46**

Approaching 1 is virtually miai and therefore not urgent or big.

D17 is possible and entirely consistent with the heavily territorial approach.

Splitting at someplace like J17 allows for a sequence like: W J17 G17 N17 gives B a perfect extension from his UL.

I would play G17.

hyperpape · **#47**

I was reading the thread, and I wanted to say B should wedge at L3 to give white a smaller checking move.

Since this is a pro game, I believe the results must be equal, or close to it, but I have a hard time believing it after typical play on the bottom. For that (weak) reason, I think white wiil play on top, but I have no idea where.

daniel_the_smith · **#48**

I think white will split the top at K17.

Joaz Banbeck · **#49**

This, IMHO, is what white fears most. Those two upper left stones are glaring down the left side, and a move around D/C 6/7 attacks both the corner and the side stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . a . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Normally for white, the answer to a move like this is 'a', or nearby, and then to extend to :b9:

or nearby. But since :b9:

is there already, 'a' does not work for white.

So white has to play something lower like :w2:

below, and black attacks with :b3:

while making territory.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . 2 . . . X . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

To prevent all of the above, white plays this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm9 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Joaz Banbeck · **#50**

daniel_the_smith wrote:

I think white will split the top at K17.

Black will play H17 and get more for the exchange.

Kirby · **#51**

Maybe M3? It's true that it's miai to make a base on the bottom, but I think white can benefit by forcing the direction that b makes his base in. The reason I think that this direction is interesting is because the extension on the right is further than what's on the left.

Black will likely make a base, and as a side effect, white can protect the left side in some way to deal with issue Joaz brought up.

calm · **#52**

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

This, IMHO, is what white fears most.

Your argument is impeccable except for one thing. One could argue the same thing about B Q6 indicating that R14 is the way to go.The fact is if B plays D6 then W will play either C7,B7,C8 or C14.
W doesn't care about B surrounding C3 because you expect to get surrounded when you play 3-3, thats sort of the whole point of playing 3-3.

PS D6 really doesn't attack C3. You can't really attack a stone at 3-3 with one move. That too is the point.

Kirby · **#53**

calm wrote:

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

This, IMHO, is what white fears most.

Your argument is impeccable except for one thing. One could argue the same thing about B Q6 indicating that R14 is the way to go...

The right side is not the same, because C12 is a better extension with the top left than R13 is for the top right. R13 is still a good point, but a bit more cramped.

freegame · **#54**

I think M3, just like I posted under "looking ahead" in my previous post.
White has no weakness he needs to defend next attacking is usually better then taking a big point.
The right side is bigger than the left, therefore M3 and not H3.

@calm & daniel_the_smith
Splitting the top seems to give a bad result and be too early. (for any move on top)
I think so because white has no clear groups on the board yet, only loosely connected stones.
Placing another lonely stone on the board will result in black getting a severe attack on
that single stone, and black can steer the attack in such a way that the other white stones
get weak in the proses.

@Joaz Banbeck
Playing C13 first seems too passive. now black can still do something similar on the right side.
I think it is better if you first force black into 1 direction (left) and then defend that direction (C13).
This makes it much harder for black to attack the other direction (right) with the next move.

looking ahead:

dfan · **#55**

Really interesting discussion.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm10 Move 10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X . 1 . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

freegame has already predicted G3 for Black now. Any other ideas?

prokofiev · **#56**

G3 looks most normal. F3 seems to leave a weakness without pressuring C3 particularly, so that seems out. E3 is interesting, though:

Maybe this isn't best, though, as Black should be happy to end in sente after G3.

clemi · **#57**

I prefer to play M3 directly since it implies an answer from white on the left. After this, Black still has sente.

Bill Spight · **#58**

My sealed move:

dfan · **#59**

Bill, you're one move behind.

That's a cool idea though.

I think this is the first move that no one predicted:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Move 11 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . 1 . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . X . O . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

freegame · **#60**

hmmm. That was indeed an unexpected move for me.

My thoughts about this last move:

Now my thoughts about the next move(s): (including diagram with my guess)

Prokovich game

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