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 Post subject: Re: Post your ladders!
Post #21 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:30 pm 
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Shaddy wrote:
I do it somewhat above the board. Honestly.. I would rather be rude in this way and play a proper game than be polite, misread a ladder, and be forced to resign. I feel it's rude even to make a mistake like that, since I am disrespecting my opponent by not playing as well as I can.


While I agree that it is rude not to do your best, your best is what you can do, without a book, without playing out variations, without running your finger across the board.

I have never seen a dan player do this in a tournament. In fact I have never seen anyone do it. Plenty of people angle their head and stare down the zigzag of lines - but they keep their fingers to themselves.

The AGA rules (or perhaps the Tournament regulations) are clear that you cannot obscure your opponent's view of the board for anything other than the relatively decisive placement of the stone.

You make these mistakes because you rely on this crutch. This is like KGS players who do not fill the dame. In a tournament, something dies - if they got into the practice of filling the dame they would be better about seeing shortage of liberties.

Skills are only gained if you practice them. And your version of "not being rude" by making a mistake is only a hair away from "It would ruin this game if I mess up this joseki - its clearly the right joseki and way we both want this game to develop - I am going to go to the bathroom and look it up on my phone"

It might be a thick, healthy hair, full of body, but it follows the same logic.

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Post #22 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:48 pm 
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Supplement - AGA Tournament Regulations

V. Player Conduct and Etiquette.

Go is a game steeped in tradition, courtesy and respect for one's opponent. During tournament play, a player shall generally conduct him/herself with a minimum of behavior that is disruptive or irritating to other players.

F. Access. A player may not prevent his/her opponent's access to, or sight of the board, the stones on the board, the clock, and the prisoners...under any circumstances.

VI B. 2. A stone must be placed on an intersection with a minimum of adjustment and a minimum of time being touched by the player. Players are specifically enjoined to remember the spirit of V. F. when playing a stone.

----------------------------------------------------------------

The regulations properly ask us to respect our opponent, not by making no mistakes, but by not doing things that annoy them. The rules above prohibit tracing ladders out with your finger. I find it hard to believe logic will allow much disagreement here. If you can do ladders, then you can place your fingers on the board reading EVERY situation. It is extremely distracting, annoying. It is a crutch and very close to a cheat.

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 Post subject: Re: Post your ladders!
Post #23 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:06 pm 
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Horibe wrote:
Shaddy wrote:
I do it somewhat above the board. Honestly.. I would rather be rude in this way and play a proper game than be polite, misread a ladder, and be forced to resign. I feel it's rude even to make a mistake like that, since I am disrespecting my opponent by not playing as well as I can.


While I agree that it is rude not to do your best, your best is what you can do, without a book, without playing out variations, without running your finger across the board.

Suppose I am about to place a stone, and as I'm about to lay it down I notice a variation that I did not notice before I had picked it up. If I do not play the stone where I was about to play it, have I cheated?
Horibe wrote:
I have never seen a dan player do this in a tournament. In fact I have never seen anyone do it. Plenty of people angle their head and stare down the zigzag of lines - but they keep their fingers to themselves.

The AGA rules (or perhaps the Tournament regulations) are clear that you cannot obscure your opponent's view of the board for anything other than the relatively decisive placement of the stone.

You make these mistakes because you rely on this crutch. This is like KGS players who do not fill the dame. In a tournament, something dies - if they got into the practice of filling the dame they would be better about seeing shortage of liberties.

It's not as if I don't read ladders out before I do this. I do it several times, and then I do this to be absolutely certain. I've been burned by missing ladders quite a few times and it never sinks in- so while it does, I will do this.
Horibe wrote:
Skills are only gained if you practice them. And your version of "not being rude" by making a mistake is only a hair away from "It would ruin this game if I mess up this joseki - its clearly the right joseki and way we both want this game to develop - I am going to go to the bathroom and look it up on my phone"

It might be a thick, healthy hair, full of body, but it follows the same logic.


There's quite a difference between a joseki and a ladder. A joseki is a higher-level construct- it takes a lot of reading and good judgment to find the right path, and for many of us, if we did not memorise joseki from a book or learn them from someone else, would not know how to play most of our joseki. A ladder is completely rote, there's almost no thought involved in reading it out. I do practice reading them- however, making small, silly mistakes like this is an unfortunate habit of mine, and it happens no matter what I'm doing or how much I practice it (like arithmetic, which I've done continuously since I was six or whatever- often I'll do some little calculation like adding or multiplying wrong and it'll send everything to hell) so it's a crap choice: either I can rely on my reading and take loss after loss due to a 25k error, or I can be rude and rid of the uncertainty.

edit:
It is alright, then, if I do not put my fingers on the board, but use them to trace the ladder from my point of view? This is not against the rules, but is it still close to a cheat?

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 Post subject: Re: Post your ladders!
Post #24 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:20 pm 
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Shaddy wrote:
Suppose I am about to place a stone, and as I'm about to lay it down I notice a variation that I did not notice before I had picked it up. If I do not play the stone where I was about to play it, have I cheated?

There's quite a difference between a joseki and a ladder. A joseki is a higher-level construct- it takes a lot of reading and good judgment to find the right path, and for many of us, if we did not memorise joseki from a book or learn them from someone else, would not know how to play most of our joseki. A ladder is completely rote, there's almost no thought involved in reading it out.


I would have let this drop, but you ask a question.

The answer is no, you have not cheated, if I understand the question. On one occaision, you begin to place a stone, but before it touches the board, you change your mind. That is not ideal, but it is absolutely fine, and happens all the time.

If the stone touches the board, and you then decide to change, you have a problem. This is a violation, I would not say cheating, but a violation. Many players would call a TD and you would be instructed not to do it again, and your game would be monitored. If your hand leaves the stone, it is played.

I am going to drop it, since we seem to be the only ones who care strongly about this. I am pretty confident that the silent are on my side, but you never know. I have no idea how many face to face tournaments you have played in, but if you did this to someone, and they did not complain, then your opponent was a better person than me.

"There is no thought in reading it out" I suggest you try some Nakayama ladder problems if you think this is so. But limber up your finger before you do.

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 Post subject: Re: Post your ladders!
Post #25 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:16 pm 
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i wouldn't see so big issue in tracing the ladder by a finger. first, it is not cheating (as compared to checking josekis), because your opponent see what you do - and as was already said, it is against the rules, so if he feels harmed by your practice, he can complain and should win the dispute.

besides that, unless someone would do it all the time, it would probably cheer me up, seeing that my opponent can't even read a simple ladder :)

to add something also to the original topic of the thread, at my last tournament i happened to see this ladder (sorry, the picture is little too big to be attached with the img tag). both players SDKs, i was playing at the board #7

EDIT: original link broken, i uploaded the photo here


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171482_108463052565504_105116249566851_61251_2217170_p.jpg [ 309.34 KiB | Viewed 5192 times ]

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Last edited by Laman on Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Post your ladders!
Post #26 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:10 pm 
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I don't see anything wrong with reading out a ladder with your finger...as long as you're just doing it in front of you and not physically hovering an inch above the board zigzagging your finger to read the ladder. I usually either do a big zigzag with my head, or hold my finger out in front of me to draw a zigzag in the air.

As for comparing ladders to josekis, going to the bathroom to look up a joseki is Completely different from reading out a ladder on the board, since in the ladder case, the player is simply visualizing the stones on the board with his finger, while in the joseki case the player is actually looking up a sequence that he or she wouldn't have known otherwise.

In any case, I see no shame in having to use a visualization to read out ladders, as long as it isn't disturbing the opponent much. :)

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Post #27 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:55 pm 
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Kageyama says something snarky about people who read out ladders with their fingers (=me) that struck a chord with me. What I took away from it is that tracing out ladders with your finger is on the same plane as "solving" tsumego online by randomly clicking away until you find something that works. In both cases you'll find the answer eventually, but your reading will remain weak.

I still occasionally brute-force GoChild problems, but I'm trying to do it mentally.

For reference:
Ladders

Still on ladders? Ridiculous! Even looking at this page is beneath me.

Yes, but even if you feel you are being cheated, read on a little further. Don't forget fundamentals. Our study begins with ladders.

[Dia. 1] The outcome of this game hangs on whether or not Black can capture that white stone in the ladder that starts with :b1:. Many amateurs, sometimes even dan-ranked amateurs, are apt to become impatient when confronted with long ladders like this and resort to stooping down and sighting diagonally or running their fingers zig-zag across the board, or in extreme cases to arguing their opponents into submission verbally. All this I find a bit silly.

When the ladder becomes slightly difficult like this, there is a widespread tendency to give up, and wonder if there is not something like a triangle theorem, some mechanism one can apply to get the answer instantly. If you want to create such a thing it is not much trouble to do so, but having it will only prove destructive to your game. Ladders should be the school that teaches you to read patiently, move by move - black, white, black, white, black, white - which is the only way.

Some will say, "Phooey, that much I know already; it's just that it's too much bother to actually do it." Others will say, "Look, I'm still weak at the game; I can't do anything difficult like reading." So much for these lazy students, let them do as they please. They are not going to get anywhere. They need to be grabbed by the scruff of the neck and have some sense knocked into them.


And more:
Read it again. Anyone whose eyes start to prickle or who gets a headache has a bad case of astigmatism and should see an optometrist at once.

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 Post subject: Re: Post your ladders!
Post #28 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:08 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O O X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O O . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O B X . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think that's the coolest ladder that appeared in all my games so far. Nothing too fancy, still the feeling was awesome :)

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Post #29 Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:28 pm 
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pepi wrote:
I think that's the coolest ladder that appeared in all my games so far. Nothing too fancy, still the feeling was awesome :)

for you? or the other guy?

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 Post subject: Re: Post your ladders!
Post #30 Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:00 am 
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For me, my opponent played the marked black stone and got captured. The feeling is great because one (or at least I) seldom get to see an actual ladder being played out in a game of mine - that usually means someone has made a reading mistake and the game is about to end soon.

It's like realizing "OK, so those things ladders that I keep thinking about and watching for really do exist - you're looking at one right now".

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Post #31 Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:16 am 
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pepi wrote:
For me, my opponent played the marked black stone and got captured. The feeling is great because one (or at least I) seldom get to see an actual ladder being played out in a game of mine - that usually means someone has made a reading mistake and the game is about to end soon.

It's like realizing "OK, so those things ladders that I keep thinking about and watching for really do exist - you're looking at one right now".


That's why being able to read ladders is pretty important. I have seen a few games where 4-5 dan players would screw this kind of ladder up!

Had this kind of thing happen in a wbaduk game once against a 5d a few years ago.

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Post #32 Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:11 pm 
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Image
Have I ever seen anyone resign with an ear-to-ear smile before?


This post by rubin427 was liked by 2 people: Akura, robinz
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Post #33 Posted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:00 am 
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I find zig-zagging my finger on the table helps me read ladders. Or maybe it's my imagination. Anyway, the good folks who play at the (primarily) Korean go center near me can't read ladders. I've never seen 2-5d's play out ladders before but it's happened to me there like three times. Here's what happened yesterday. The kibitzing made me wish I understood Korean.



...And yes, I went on to win this game.

Does anyone know the proper refutation to my 20? I'm sure it's not right.

(it was one of four and played yesterday so I may have forgotten some non-relevant moves)

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Post #34 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:19 am 
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Nice ladder, but I don't think black moving out was reasonable there... White 39 at B12 would make miai of suffering a huge loss in the bottom right or sacrificing the entire top left.

Anyway, you refuted :w20: fairly convincingly in the game, no? The result there looks pretty terrible to white, if you ask me.

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Post #35 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:18 am 
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Laman wrote:
to add something also to the original topic of the thread, at my last tournament i happened to see this ladder (sorry, the picture is little too big to be attached with the img tag). both players SDKs, i was playing at the board #7


The old man should be crying, isn't it?

What I do recently is to keep a note on paper of the size of the territories. I'm not sure that is legal or not.

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Post #36 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:39 am 
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gaius wrote:
Nice ladder, but I don't think black moving out was reasonable there... White 39 at B12 would make miai of suffering a huge loss in the bottom right or sacrificing the entire top left.

Anyway, you refuted :w20: fairly convincingly in the game, no? The result there looks pretty terrible to white, if you ask me.


I misread W @ B12 initially. It doesn't matter when he plays it, though-- I have time to play one move to settle the ladder and then can live in gote in the corner (as I do after the ladder). But if he'd not played the ladder out it would have been MUCH better for him, I agree.

20 is a black move, I think you're referring to :w21: -- I agree that :w21: is terrible, perhaps a failed punishment of my :b20: . My move doesn't seem to get much pro play at all. (White commented during the game that the corner was terrible, so he agrees...)

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Post #37 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:29 am 
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daniel_the_smith wrote:
Does anyone know the proper refutation to my 20? I'm sure it's not right.


I would look at B15

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Post #38 Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:56 am 
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Laman wrote:
to add something also to the original topic of the thread, at my last tournament i happened to see this ladder (sorry, the picture is little too big to be attached with the img tag). both players SDKs, i was playing at the board #7


I love that picture -- those are two great smiles!

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Post #39 Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:37 am 
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Time for some thread-necromancy. I'm creating an .sgf of ladders for myself to follow Kageyama's advice of reading out a ladder every day. Does anyone have some more games with ladders in them?

It doesn't have to be a game where the ladder was actually played out, just so long as the situation where the ladder is headed is complicated enough to making reading it out fun.

And while I'm making requests, could you post the game in .sgf, or at least showing the order of the last several moves, if possible? I'd like to start reading it out before the ladder stones are actually played.

And as a tangent: Kageyama recommends capturing the ladder stone immediately, whether or not your opponent plays a ladder-breaker. Does anyone follow this advice?

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Post #40 Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:39 pm 
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jts wrote:
And as a tangent: Kageyama recommends capturing the ladder stone immediately, whether or not your opponent plays a ladder-breaker. Does anyone follow this advice?
I didn't learn from Kageyama, but yes 9 times out of 10 I find that capturing the ladder stone immediately is the best thing to do.

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